Solaron's Equipment Fix! Read or DIE!

[Solaron]

Okay, first things first: This entire idea is based on the ideas that good gear has become more plentiful AND that the definition of good gear has increased as time has passed (basically EQ inflation. What once passed for a great set when I started is unacceptable in current times.)

The pit is often full of dex, str and damage gear. 3dmgs routinely sell for 25k or less. +3s of other stats (wis, con, dex, str, int, luck, da) are worth much less, if anything. You would probably have to pay someone to take 3mr off of your hands.

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Here's the idea:

The code already exists for armor to degrade and be repaired (via MoK). I suggest that as you fight, your armor slowly degrades. It would be visible when examined, or perhaps exist as a separate flag similar to the magic flags (IE: (Somewhat Worn) (Moderate magic) an amulet).

As the armor class degrades, it would be able to be repaired via MoK. There would be a decreasing chance that the armor would be repairable. Thus, at max repair status -1, there would be a 70% chance that the item would be repaired. At max repair status -2, 60%, and on down. Once the item is at the lowest repair status, it no longer loses AC, nor can it be repaired any farther. Instead, there is a chance that instead of degrading, it is instead destroyed.

Limited equipment would not be affected by this, adding in more benefits to limited gear.

This would encourage and stimulate the economy more, as gear would degrade and need to be replaced. This would also deplete some of the current eq stored.

Let's get some discussion started!

[Nicademus]

Interesting solution to a complex problem. Seems like you are proposing a way around an actual eq wipe that over time would have some of the same benefits. I know this might tick people off, but it still seems to me that simple rings should be removed from the game. To this end and to make things interesting, how about if enchants wore off over time? I mean an enchant would last a while, but eventually (like most magic) it would fade. With respect to weapons, they could reenchanted (or not), but simple rings would only be able to be enchanted once.

Nic.

[Tynian]

From a code standpoint, making enchant weapon a duration spell would be trivial.

[Nicademus]

From a code standpoint, making enchant weapon a duration spell would be trivial.


Im not sure what you mean. Do you mean that it would be easy, or that it would have no impact? The impact I was going for was to make simple rings loose magical properties at some point... Taking simple rings out would even the playing field a little...

[Tynian]

I apologize for not being more clear.

It would be easy to make 'enchant weapon' a duration spell, as you proposed.

On the other hand, it sounds like an irritant. So you have to re-enchant whatever -- it's annoying, but what does it "solve?" Unless you are proposing that items can only be enchanted once or something.

[Solaron]

I apologize for not being more clear.

It would be easy to make 'enchant weapon' a duration spell, as you proposed.

On the other hand, it sounds like an irritant. So you have to re-enchant whatever -- it's annoying, but what does it "solve?" Unless you are proposing that items can only be enchanted once or something.

Most simples are enchanted with hard-to-find enchants (6/7). Still, most people who have simples can get access to them... wouldn't be a huge fix. I think having them degrade eventually would be enough!

[Tynian]

I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to address, Solaron. I think you are concerned with stored equipment. Is that accurate? Or are you concerned that people build a set and then their needs are met?

[Natilena]

It makes sense to me.. stimulating the market by creating a demand.

If eq degrades with use it requires you to constatnly need a replacement but not so quickly that you're re-doing entire sets every month.

It would start taking down the AC, that we alreayd have the code to deal with. Maybe expand to reduce enchantment.

BUT at that point why not just bring the acid mobs back :P Thats all they did as well?

[Tokugawa]

BUT at that point why not just bring the acid mobs back :P Thats all they did as well?

Because no one goes into zones for the most part in which equipment can be destroyed or etched.

This sounds a lot like in game rent. Yuck. And having the possibility that the item could be totally destroyed?

Double Yuck

I think this would actually drive current players away. The idea of having to constantly repair items and then possibly have the item destroyed would be a major hassle.

-Tokugawa

[Solaron]

I think this would actually drive current players away. The idea of having to constantly repair items and then possibly have the item destroyed would be a major hassle.

-Tokugawa

This single fear alone seems to stymie any movement forward. We take small steps here and there, but for the fear that we're going to drive players away we seem to avoid the larger stuff.

Players are already leaving. We're not going to stop it by not making large changes.

That said....


I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to address, Solaron. I think you are concerned with stored equipment. Is that accurate? Or are you concerned that people build a set and then their needs are met?

It's a few things. It's a way to address some people's wish for an EQ wipe. It's a way to handle some of the rampant EQ inflation. It's a way to handle some of the massive amounts of storage out there. It's a way to stimulate the economy, because people will actually need NEW stuff. If you also add in increased functionality for other non-combat stats (wis, etc) then the economy will receive an even larger boost.

The rent code was silly because you had to rent to save your gear. I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that as you fight, your gear takes damage and degrades. There's a difference.

Thanks for the discussion!

[Tokugawa]

The rent code was silly because you had to rent to save your gear. I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that as you fight, your gear takes damage and degrades. There's a difference.

To me, it still sounds like rent.

*shrug*

[Tokugawa]

It's a few things. It's a way to address some people's wish for an EQ wipe.


An eq wipe does not solve the perceived problem. Those than do a lot of pk'ing will get eq again as they do now. The only thing limiting them is time.



It's a way to handle some of the rampant EQ inflation. It's a way to handle some of the massive amounts of storage out there.


Add "durability" aka "item degradation" and people may actually start hoarding equipment more than they do now now for when an item is destroyed.

I think what I did not convey in my original message was this. You do not want to make it harder for people to play. As it is, it's hard to get a good set of eq for those who do not pk.

If you really want to get rid of the "massive amounts of storage out there" you would need to do an eq wipe and remove the follower system. As Immortals are the biggest hoarders of equipment in the game.

-Tokugawa

[boromir]

Greetings!

From what I have read, I would have to say that this is not rent.
If you dont repair your eq, its still yours but used .. and in some cases REALLY Used *chuckle*
And therein lies the difference, you dont have to get your eq repaired and its still your eq. With rent, you dont pay the rent, you lose the eq.

With regards to the repairs et al,
Allow a piece of eq to be repaired to 100% since the damage could be light.
Allow a piece of eq to be improved as part of the repair for a seriously LARGE fee...like better AC or remove a magical attribute (NOT alignment flag)
Put a repair shop in every home town since everyone should have access to this service no matter what level
Pro-rate the charges based upon effective level so that a level 10 can afford the 5k or 10k to get an item fixed and Not have to fork over the 50k or so from a level 50.

Your considered opinion and thoughts!::up::

[Tay]

I like Boro's idea, the thought of eq not being repaired to 100% sounds...well...not cool, as for simple rings, if you spend 5mil on one, and thats not including enchant, and it degrades, your out a bit of cash. make the price steep to add ac to your eq, much more than would be to repair it. i think this idea should be improved on and worked out before we think about stickin it in the game.

::whistle:: BTW:what the heck has a broadway musical like Rent have anything to do with this?::whistle:: j/k....but seriously what is rent?

[Solaron]

An eq wipe does not solve the perceived problem. Those than do a lot of pk'ing will get eq again as they do now. The only thing limiting them is time.

If you look at these ideas from a separate standpoint of each one being a standalone idea, you are correct. As I said, my entire idea is based on the assumption that you agree that EQ inflation is a probelm. If you don't, then you won't agree. This idea by itself will not fix it, either.... but it's a solution that should make both sides as happy as they're going to get.



Add "durability" aka "item degradation" and people may actually start hoarding equipment more than they do now now for when an item is destroyed.

People are going to hoard regardless of what we do. The sheer amount of gear on storage characters is pretty crazy. Any of the uber-geared would be regeared in full 3dmgs and possibly a simple or more within an hour or two of dying. EQ means nothing these days, really.


I think what I did not convey in my original message was this. You do not want to make it harder for people to play. As it is, it's hard to get a good set of eq for those who do not pk.

That's not true. It's easy, easy, easy to get a "good" set of EQ for non-PKers. 3dmgs routinely sell for 25k over auction, the pit is usually full of +3s of every other stat there is, etc. A non-PKer could get a set to swing caps in a very short time-frame. A metal-wearer would have it even easier.



If you really want to get rid of the "massive amounts of storage out there" you would need to do an eq wipe and remove the follower system. As Immortals are the biggest hoarders of equipment in the game.

I'm an advocate of this proposal, Tokugawa. I'm trying to find a solution that will be acceptable to both sides. EQ wiping and removing the follower system is quite a bit harsher than just saying 'Look, your gear is going to degrade. More than likely you'll be able to repair it up to full. If not... it'll last you another 6 months at least. Start looking for a replacement.'



I know that we are concerned about what might make things more difficult for players, but that's always been part of the enjoyment.

[Tynian]

This single fear alone seems to stymie any movement forward. We take small steps here and there, but for the fear that we're going to drive players away we seem to avoid the larger stuff.

Eh, from my point of view, if a change makes enough sense, then maybe we take the chance and do it. The real question is whether making a given change will do more harm than good.

I'm not really sold on this idea. For one thing, I remember the population's dislike for aciding mobs, and the proposed change effectively makes all of them acid blasters. The 'acid dislike' isn't limited to TFC. I know Maurice's biggest complaint with his previous mud was that all high level mobs acid blasted, and he was sick of his equipment being damaged.

I don't know. It seems like the people that would be impacted the most by this change would be those that can least afford it.

The difficulty in finding an equitable solution to this problem points to how difficult of a problem this is to solve. Thanks for proposing it.

[Pol]

Couple of quick comments...

1. Removing simples will destroy the economy, I think. The desire to earn more gold, and this includes auctioning (which is a great way to distribute eq around), is driven ultimately by the demand to buy a simple at some point in the chain. I think this is what gives gold any value at all, ultimately.

2. What real problem exists? Is the suggestion to address the difference between the "haves" and the "have nots", is it to address the glut of eq stored on storage characters?

I'm not really clear on what the problem actually is. Perhaps a better identification of the problem will help spur the right solution.

Pol O'Song.

[Solaron]

Eh, from my point of view, if a change makes enough sense, then maybe we take the chance and do it. The real question is whether making a given change will do more harm than good.

I'm not really sold on this idea. For one thing, I remember the population's dislike for aciding mobs, and the proposed change effectively makes all of them acid blasters. The 'acid dislike' isn't limited to TFC. I know Maurice's biggest complaint with his previous mud was that all high level mobs acid blasted, and he was sick of his equipment being damaged.

I don't know. It seems like the people that would be impacted the most by this change would be those that can least afford it.

The difficulty in finding an equitable solution to this problem points to how difficult of a problem this is to solve. Thanks for proposing it.


I'd hate it as well if all high-level mobs acid blasted as well. There's zones that are rarely explored at all because of the Area Spells of their mobs (namely Jester's Keep). That said.... this isn't acid blast. Acid blast can destroy an item to useleness in about an hour of XPing. It can ruin ALL of your items, your entire set, quickly. My proposal would do that, sure.... in about 12 months of playtime and NEVER going to get the item repaired.

[Thor]

I just want to say I like this idea. I really think it would start EQ flowing again at least some. I've seen this type of thing done before on muds and it worked out fairly well. Although it's been on more RP type muds. (like the kind where you have recipes for making stuff, etc) I want to hit on the main points I liked best. (some I may have dreamed I read)

1) EQ can only be repaired so much. After a point it just becomes unfixable and needs to be replaced. I like this. You can only patch leather (for example) so many times before you just can't put any more patches on it.

2) EQ can be "repaired" to better than the original. I don't really argee with this one. Although I do like the idea. It should be very high priced to raise just 1 AC point, like simple ring type thing. However, I don't think is should be in the same thought as repairing. And not done in an easily accessable repair shop. Perhaps put ONE of this type of place "hidden" in the realm.

3) Put repair shops in every HT. I think this is vital. If we are going to make this such a big part of the game, repair shops need to be very well known and easy to access. Even add info about it to Algenara and make a help file.

4) Prorate the cost of repairs based on effective level. I especially like this idea. It is extremely hard for newbies to get gold without having big friends. This would help true newbies not get discouraged with having to repair EQ. Perhaps we could set it so that EQ doesn't start to take damage until after eff 5 or something?

That's about all I can think of right this second. I'll post more later if I think of something.

[Anonymous Mammal]

The code already exists for armor to degrade and be repaired (via MoK). I suggest that as you fight, your armor slowly degrades. It would be visible when examined, or perhaps exist as a separate flag similar to the magic flags (IE: (Somewhat Worn) (Moderate magic) an amulet).I have seen this code on SMAUG muds. It works a little too well. For instance I can recall a battle I had with a pretty large mob that was wearing very nice eq that I wanted. After the mob was dead, I had lost half of my equipment and the equipment on the mob I was going after due to battle damage. I admit, TFC isn't SMAUG (thankfully) and that the SMAUG code was a bit extreme, but if you add this kind of eq degredation and add in area spell damage, such as acid blast/acid breath, it could possibly end up with the same results. Tynian would have to code the eq damage in very carefully as to avoid the situation I described.

2) EQ can be "repaired" to better than the original. I don't really argee with this one. Although I do like the idea. It should be very high priced to raise just 1 AC point, like simple ring type thing. However, I don't think is should be in the same thought as repairing. And not done in an easily accessable repair shop.I also don't agree with this. This opens up possibilites of abuse by those who have the gold to spare, making the rich richer and the powerful more powerful.

Perhaps put ONE of this type of place "hidden" in the realm.Things that are hidden do not remain hidden much longer after someone makes the first discovery. I don't think a wandering mob would make much sense either since it would need to return to its shop in order to make repairs.

4) Prorate the cost of repairs based on effective level. I especially like this idea. It is extremely hard for newbies to get gold without having big friends. This would help true newbies not get discouraged with having to repair EQ. Perhaps we could set it so that EQ doesn't start to take damage until after eff 5 or something?This would most likely get abused. I can think of several characters that would deliberatly give their damaged eq and gold to a low level character for the sole purpose of getting it repaired at a cheaper price. I do not believe this option would work effectively.

[Natilena]

he was sick of his equipment being damaged.

Yes, what Solaron said. I don't think the feeling was that it should be one hit takes your armor to mush. Over a few months of steady xp-ing, any adventurer worthy of the title would need to get some of the dents pounded out of the metal or a couple holes in their leather sewn up. As well the acid affect does more than just reduce the AC (which CAN be repaired) it takes out bags and does more damange than just repairable AC. I think the feeling of being "sick of equipment being damaged" comes from a place that there was no recourse but to replace the item.



I don't know. It seems like the people that would be impacted the most by this change would be those that can least afford it.

And the fines aren't already doing that? Degrading eq based on use probable makes more sense and is more intuative than the random fines for stoarage being dealt out now. Especially if there was a message when you were damanged a bit. The fines as they are set up now are very hard to predict and to a less than experienced player can come as a big shock. I have a character I just stopped playing because the fines now are so high I can't possibly xp enough pay them.




2. What real problem exists? Is the suggestion to address the difference between the "haves" and the "have nots", is it to address the glut of eq stored on storage characters?

The goal I think is not so much to stop something or narrow the difference between the haves and have-nots but to stimulate a very dead economy. No equipment moves, not a lot of auctions and sales, +3s and better are discarded or sac'd because there is no "need". Create a need, that stimulates the market and moves the gold.

[Tynian]

And the fines aren't already doing that?

Actually, no.

No one pays fines for long - it's too expensive for even the rich to do for long. That's aside from the fact that you are fined on non-worn "excess" items. In contrast, the outlined proposal impacts worn equipment.

[Tynian]

P.S. - I'm not suggesting that fines are the best way to go.

I would rather treat all worn equipment (including random items) like we do for limited items. That is, we set an expiration time on the equipment that gets pushed out further in the future the more you wear it. This simulates the idea that you are maintaining your worn equipment, and also keeps that equipment from being stored for long periods of time.

I don't want to hijack the thread, though.

I wonder if the outlined proposal makes equipment circulate, or just causes people to have to repair more often, using the same worn gear they have always used. I know Solaron mentioned that there's a chance equipment couldn't be repaired. Set too high, and this will be demoralizing. Set too low, and equipment doesn't necessarily circulate any better.

[Katrana]

Actually, no.

No one pays fines for long - it's too expensive for even the rich to do for long. That's aside from the fact that you are fined on non-worn "excess" items. In contrast, the outlined proposal impacts worn equipment.

True. No one pays the fines. But those that have mass fines and items taken away most likely forgot to log in for awhile, or forgot about the fine code. To avoid fines people have their friends create character after character to store their 'good' stuff to avoid fines when their Mish store gets full. Mish stores 10 items for relatively cheap so long as you run out and get some coins every other day or so, you're fine. People also use their fli as a gear store, granted it's for the following but still that's gear that just sits around.

I'd add to Sol's list and say that non battle damage needs to occur as well. For those that character after character. Metal gets rusty, leather degrades.... It makes logical sense that all of that would occur. You could make different types of metals and leathers last longer perhaps, elven chain could be highly durable, as could mithral and titanium...but say padded leather, or fur degrades faster, same with iron.


The goal I think is not so much to stop something or narrow the difference between the haves and have-nots but to stimulate a very dead economy. No equipment moves, not a lot of auctions and sales, +3s and better are discarded or sac'd because there is no "need". Create a need, that stimulates the market and moves the gold.

Nati, I couldn't agree more. The economy is completely dead. That was the truth when I was an fli; I got to the point where my followers would sac +3s daily, yes even 3 damages. My bags were full, and my boys were geared. They couldn't sell the stuff. I was sac'ing leveling combos, and even leveling gear that was +4. No one wanted to buy things anymore. No one needed anything better. They all had it already. 3 damages have gone from selling for over 100k, to 50k, to now heh I've seen some be sac'ed, that'd be blasphemy before. I know about 5-7 players (not chars, active players with multiple chars) who if given the opportunity would sacr the corpses of the well geared players in TFC, just to see if they couldn't help the economy, and because the gear on those players is just ridiculous. Those same players would support an eq wipe, but that's out of the question so, whee! I guess this ends the conversation.

So to summarize:
Economy = dead
Gear degrading = good gear going byebye = need for more gear = restart of transactions = needed reboot of economy

I believe this could have an added benefit of people not being as afraid of losing gear, because if their gear is about to degrade completely, they will be out and about in the realm, trying to find more gear, instead of chilling in safe.

Added detriment tho could be people won't fight at all or leave safe anymore because their gear will degrade...though if you throw in degrading over time just not as fast it won't matter! muha!

[Gomo]

Just wanted to post from the perspective of a mid-level character.

For grunts like me who don't MUD "professionally" (my character is not a statistical beast... in fact, I think most ppl would have given up on this one with the levels I've gotten... nor do I PK), having to regularly replace equipment would simply be demoralizing and tedious. There is a difference between tedious and challenge. I'm all up for the challenge.

That said, though, I don't think the majority of characters out there are like me. They enjoy putting together the uber-character and generally have the resources and know-how.

And there is a definite need to address this problem. Exorbitant fees to repair might be ok for the higher-level characters...

I have huge gaps in my knowledge of how TFC works, so I'm not clear on how purging works, but (if it isn't already) make it aggressively based on activity, affecting both worn and inventory, both limited and randoms...

All this to say, remember the rest of us, for whom set-creation is NOT an easy task or primary focus.

[Katrana]

P.S. - I'm not suggesting that fines are the best way to go.

I would rather treat all worn equipment (including random items) like we do for limited items. That is, we set an expiration time on the equipment that gets pushed out further in the future the more you wear it. This simulates the idea that you are maintaining your worn equipment, and also keeps that equipment from being stored for long periods of time.

I don't want to hijack the thread, though.

I wonder if the outlined proposal makes equipment circulate, or just causes people to have to repair more often, using the same worn gear they have always used. I know Solaron mentioned that there's a chance equipment couldn't be repaired. Set too high, and this will be demoralizing. Set too low, and equipment doesn't necessarily circulate any better.

Don't think you're hijacking at all, it's a different proposal for the same problem. I think you'll have the same problem though. People log in, and either chill in safe, or they'll never log in again and let it naturally purge when their char purges...(like a few people in the past.) It gets aggervating for those who do play, and leave safe. Now if you put a timer that makes them be out of safe for so long, or get so much experience (then you'll have an issue with 30s 40s or 50s who no longer exp though,) then perhaps. But if it is just that they get on and have it worn, then the same problem will exist. Not sure if it's coded to take in experience today, but if it is, that time needs to be shortened. I know a few mortals who are wearing several limiteds that don't leave safe that haven't lost anything.

My thoughts again! Whee.

[Anonymous Mammal]

I'd add to Sol's list and say that non battle damage needs to occur as well. For those that character after character. Metal gets rusty, leather degrades.... It makes logical sense that all of that would occur. You could make different types of metals and leathers last longer perhaps, elven chain could be highly durable, as could mithral and titanium...but say padded leather, or fur degrades faster, same with iron.Keep in mind that most of the equipment characters wear is magical, as such, magical equipment should not be affected by everyday wear and tear that does not come with engaging in combat. It would be a disappointment to go out and find an artifact magic random only to find out it had been sitting there for a great while and that its ac had degraded somewhat.

[Thor]

It would be a disappointment to go out and find an artifact magic random only to find out it had been sitting there for a great while and that its ac had degraded somewhat.

I think this is also related to fighting that huge mob mentioned earlier to get it's awesome EQ and by the time the battle ended that awesome EQ is too worn out to be worth anything.

I suggest we make any kind of wear and tear, whether it be in battle only or just sitting there, limited to PCs. If a PC is holding/wearing the EQ it will degrade. If it's sitting on the floor, or held/worn by a NPC the EQ won't degrade, even in battle. This way things won't 'rust' over time in zone where people don't go often and battle big mobs for nice EQ won't ruin the EQ you're trying to get.

[Katrana]

And there is a definite need to address this problem. Exorbitant fees to repair might be ok for the higher-level characters...

All this to say, remember the rest of us, for whom set-creation is NOT an easy task or primary focus.

I agree Gomo, and thanks for bringing this forward. Most of us who know the system/have been around forever, tend not to think of the others who are at the other end of the spectrum, and have not played for as long. A boost to the economy would help those of you in the other end purchase or bargain for items to help your set as you grow. As of now I imagine for a player who does not have a 'support system' it could be highly frustrating. Players who sac the gear you most likely could use are either refusing to help Nashites, or sac the gear because they think people would not buy it.

If you do have questions revolving how the system works or what's involved with certain activites, post a question about it. I'm sure several here will give their knowledge on those areas. If you're looking for equipment, post it in the trade/sell category (whatever it's called, the pit I think) I'm sure many would jump at the opportunity to sell!

I believe people are thinking that the degrading that Solaron is proposing is fast paced. Perhaps Sol can verify as to how fast or slow the degrading in his mind would occur.

[Katrana]

Keep in mind that most of the equipment characters wear is magical, as such, magical equipment should not be affected by everyday wear and tear that does not come with engaging in combat. It would be a disappointment to go out and find an artifact magic random only to find out it had been sitting there for a great while and that its ac had degraded somewhat.

I would agree, if this were Dungeons and Dragons, but it isn't. What you say also isn't in any help or any other file on TFC. There is no 'definition' in TFC as to if a magical or non magical item should last forever. Does it make sense that (limited) magical items poof from you if you hadn't logged on or been on for awhile? Then in return, rangers off hand weapons should degrade and fall apart since they are not magical. Just something to think about :)

Also though, if that artifact magic item isn't being used, it's just as much of a disappointment in my eyes. If people have RL circumstances perhaps their character could be put in a stasis or something so they don't degrade (like if they are in the military, or have some RL issue.)

Perhaps depending on the level of magic, as well as material, the item would degrade faster or slower. I could see that.

[Anonymous Mammal]

There is no 'definition' in TFC as to if a magical or non magical item should last forever. Does it make sense that (limited) magical items poof from you if you hadn't logged on or been on for awhile? Then in return, rangers off hand weapons should degrade and fall apart since they are not magical.By that reasoning, this wouldn't make sense either:
Limited equipment would not be affected by this, adding in more benefits to limited gear.
I believe this whole solution to a problem that may not even exist is filled with flaws. As stated earlier, the problem needs to be better defined to come up with a proper solution.

[Solaron]

I believe this whole solution to a problem that may not even exist is filled with flaws. As stated earlier, the problem needs to be better defined to come up with a proper solution.


There is an issue. Whether or not you regard it as a problem depends on your perspective. You obviously don't feel there's an issue, Anonymous Mammal. You probably won't ever feel there's one. I can't change that... I don't really care to.

Ohio is north to people in Florida and its south to people in Canada. That doesn't make either side wrong; it depends on perspective.

The economy on TFC is dead. It's not dying, it's not breathing its last breath, it's dead and in the ground. The only reason to get gold is to buy simple rings. That's it! Gear doesn't sell unless you find a +5 damage and all that has been done for it over the years is to make items newer, nice items that cost a ton.

I'm not saying gear should degrade and disappear in a day or a month. I'm saying that it should be a fairly slow process with an easily visible inner-workings. When an item degrades, you should be able to see "An iron breastplate cracks under the blow!". When you examine it, it should say "This item is in pristine condition." or "This item is in poor condition" and everything in between. When you take it to be repaired at your hometown smith, he should say 'Sure, I can repair that, Solaron.' and hand it back to you or say, rarely, 'I'm sorry, Solaron. A crack like that can't be mended.' and hand it back. If that's the case, okay. It's lost a point of AC. It won't be destroyed until it reaches ac0 anyway.

In my day as a mortal, my gear was fairly nice. My onbody, for example, was 5dmg 5str. I would've probably worn it less frequently than I did if I knew it could be destroyed... and I would've also kept an eye out for replacements. My 3dmgs I would have to keep a steady stock of... and I wore metals, which would've taken longer to destroy. Leather gear should see a brisk trade, as ac1 and 2 leathers would die much faster than metal.

Gomo, I'm not suggesting that you'd have to spent every hour of the day regearing and/or dreading all of your gear poofing. It wouldn't be a common occurence for an item to disappear... but repairing one or two a week would be important. You as a middling level character would have it easier than the level 50s with 5 damages - those would be the most drastically affected, as it should be.

Once again: I see this as an issue and have found a way that in my mind addresses it. Some of you agree. If you don't, that's fine. Do you not think there's an issue? That's alright. Don't ask me to explain it any more though; other people have seen what I speak of and understand. If you do think there's an issue and don't agree with my resolution, why not respond with your input instead?

Thanks for the discussion.

[Katrana]

By that reasoning, this wouldn't make sense either:
I believe this whole solution to a problem that may not even exist is filled with flaws. As stated earlier, the problem needs to be better defined to come up with a proper solution.

I don't agree with that part of Sol's solution at all. I think all items should be affected. I never said I agreed with that portion.

As for the problem it is stated, and I'm not sure how much clearer you can get than 'eq inflation': Solaron stated in a post prior that "As I said, my entire idea is based on the assumption that you agree that EQ inflation is a probelm. " and in his very first post, "Okay, first things first: This entire idea is based on the ideas that good gear has become more plentiful AND that the definition of good gear has increased as time has passed (basically EQ inflation. What once passed for a great set when I started is unacceptable in current times.)"

Back to the issue: "As I said, my entire idea is based on the assumption that you agree that EQ inflation is a probelm. "

Personally, not sure how you can think it is not a problem, if you are saying that you don't believe it isn't a problem, could you tell me why? Something has affected the economy of TFC to the point of it being stagnant. My personal belief is that it is the inflation, thus my recent additions to the post. I would love for the problem to be fixed and I thought the degrading of items was a good solution as it is not a wipe, or anything so extreme.

As I said tho, that's my thoughts and opinions:) This is a good debate/conversation. Let's keep it up.

[Gomo]

Gomo, I'm not suggesting that you'd have to spent every hour of the day regearing and/or dreading all of your gear poofing. It wouldn't be a common occurence for an item to disappear... but repairing one or two a week would be important. You as a middling level character would have it easier than the level 50s with 5 damages - those would be the most drastically affected, as it should be.

If this is a slow, gradual process, it's an idea that I think has some merit.

In this case, repair cost based on the level of damage is an equitable one. As Solaron mentioned, it would be easier for lower levels to replace their gear rather than spending a fortune in repairing it. Higher levels would put down the money, but eventually, would be unable to do so.

But I think this might need to be paired with an aggressive eq purge based on activity (ideally on xp or out-of-safe, not time) for both limiteds and randoms (as I said earlier) to flush out imbalance.

[Anonymous Mammal]

It would seem that the source of this problem, eq inflation, is a direct result of tweaking of the randoms code that was done a while back. Since that time randoms have been popping with more affects and higher values on the affects. If that change was reversed and your idea of eq damage over time was to be implemented, it might be possible to reduce the inflation problem. A change such as this would not fix the problem overnight but it would eventually return some value to items of moderate magic and possibly even weak magic.

However, this may also lead to a greater case of eq hoarding as people will be preparing for their eq to disentegrate as it becomes damaged beyond repair.

Every change has consequences, some good, some bad.

[Hiro]

I would not be a big fan of degrading equipment. For people who dont indulge in large piles of presorted randoms getting above adverage to good equipment by randoming or wheeling and dealing is a long drawn out process. Now I have to deal with the prospect of having my hard traded gains wear away on me?

As for the economy I wouldnt call it dead. Flooded in certain items, maybe, but not dead. I see lots of demands for thuggable metals and a huge run on dam/da combos now that floating damage is here to stay. True, the value of 3dams may be down, but I swapped 5da sleeves last week for 500k, a 28 health and a 5str 15mana nm shield (the shield is available for trade, PM with interest). It all depends on what part of the market you look at.

Hiro

[Solaron]

I would not be a big fan of degrading equipment. For people who dont indulge in large piles of presorted randoms getting above adverage to good equipment by randoming or wheeling and dealing is a long drawn out process. Now I have to deal with the prospect of having my hard traded gains wear away on me?

As for the economy I wouldnt call it dead. Flooded in certain items, maybe, but not dead. I see lots of demands for thuggable metals and a huge run on dam/da combos now that floating damage is here to stay. True, the value of 3dams may be down, but I swapped 5da sleeves last week for 500k, a 28 health and a 5str 15mana nm shield (the shield is available for trade, PM with interest). It all depends on what part of the market you look at.

Hiro

I did say that there's a market for +5s. There's just not a market for anything else.

I'm not proposing that NON-WORN gear would decay, ever. If you're not in combat, it wouldn't decay, ever. Only gear that you are WEARING while taking damage would be damaged with my proposal. The gear you are planning on selling and/or have stored on Mish would be in pristine condition, which is what people would be looking for. In no way do I want to harm sales or trades - I think that the idea and playstyle you run with (aside from being a Nashite! :p) is great. Hork did it to a lesser degree and there've been a few others.

Either way, my proposal should in no way hamper your trading and selling, unless you wear everything you sell or trade.

[Katrana]

I would not be a big fan of degrading equipment. For people who dont indulge in large piles of presorted randoms getting above adverage to good equipment by randoming or wheeling and dealing is a long drawn out process. Now I have to deal with the prospect of having my hard traded gains wear away on me?

As for the economy I wouldnt call it dead. Flooded in certain items, maybe, but not dead. I see lots of demands for thuggable metals and a huge run on dam/da combos now that floating damage is here to stay. True, the value of 3dams may be down, but I swapped 5da sleeves last week for 500k, a 28 health and a 5str 15mana nm shield (the shield is available for trade, PM with interest). It all depends on what part of the market you look at.

Hiro

The issue is eq inflation - you are talking a 3dam, vs a 5 DA item. 3 DA probably won't go for more than 20 or 30k either, nor mr, nor con nor anything else. So in order to move cash, and the economy you're talking 5DA, 28 health, and 5str combo nm shield. See my point. Also, do you move that much everyday? Only the elite can participate in that. People such as Gomo those in the middle, who don't mud daily, can't deal with that. (I only said him because that's what he said, don't think I'm picking on you! :) ) The only way they could see those, is if it randomed up, or a friend was nice and was like here, have this. The economy is dead if the only items that'll move the cash are big items and big cash. Oh yea, you can sell scores and scrolls.... Minor in the big scheme of things.

Sol gold can be used to buy blank spheres, and to bribe. But yea, other than that, it's limited. As Hiro stated, he did sell a 5DA for 500k.

If you degrade items, people would be continuously looking for more things. their gear would poof, now granted it would be over a long period of time, so people will need to plan. As for wheeling and dealing, and seeing those items poof...you'll have the same or better gear if you plan for it, unless it is something completely epic, like that 5str 5dam on body Sol was talking about. I'm sorry, but items like that come once in a lifetime, and personally, I think it'd be sweet if it went out in an epic blaze of glory instead of just sitting somewhere on some person going, 'hehe, look at my gear it's artifact magic isn't it pretty?' Maybe people would go and do something, in my mortal days, I sat around, but if I had something like that, and knew it was at ac 1, I'd be like heck no I'm not sitting around, I'm gonna go out in a blaze of glory. Then again that's my opinion.

As for more storage chars, I doubt it'll be anymore than today.

[Katrana]

I'm not proposing that NON-WORN gear would decay, ever. If you're not in combat, it wouldn't decay, ever. Only gear that you are WEARING while taking damage would be damaged with my proposal. The gear you are planning on selling and/or have stored on Mish would be in pristine condition, which is what people would be looking for. In no way do I want to harm sales or trades - I think that the idea and playstyle you run with (aside from being a Nashite! :p) is great. Hork did it to a lesser degree and there've been a few others.


I was the one that said that everything should degrade, I think they get us confused hon. ::huh:: ::up::

[Hiro]

I did say that there's a market for +5s. There's just not a market for anything else.

I'm not proposing that NON-WORN gear would decay, ever. If you're not in combat, it wouldn't decay, ever. Only gear that you are WEARING while taking damage would be damaged with my proposal. The gear you are planning on selling and/or have stored on Mish would be in pristine condition, which is what people would be looking for. In no way do I want to harm sales or trades - I think that the idea and playstyle you run with (aside from being a Nashite! :p) is great. Hork did it to a lesser degree and there've been a few others.

Either way, my proposal should in no way hamper your trading and selling, unless you wear everything you sell or trade.

Thanks for the complement. While I dont wear everything I trade, the end goal is not only to make dough, but to improve my set. I look at the time and effort I put into swindling...I mean making deals....to get the best eq I could and the idea that its goona poof on me eventually is kinda frustrating. As a player I take great pains not to get PKed and lose all my loot - implement this idea and suddenly it doesnt matter how cautious I am, my stuff is going to degrade anyway, so whats the point?

For the record, 3dams are going for 30k (more for thuggable metals) and 50k in nonmetal, dependent on ac and slot. I do have several of both in stock and ready to go. I am also always buying random scrolls for 1k each.

I think I understand what you are trying to do here - Im just not sure that the problem of eq inflation exists, and if it does, its as big a deal as it is made out to be. Arguements/discussions for another day, I guess.

Hiro
Procurator of the Nashite Magi

[Solaron]

I think I understand what you are trying to do here - Im just not sure that the problem of eq inflation exists, and if it does, its as big a deal as it is made out to be. Arguements/discussions for another day, I guess.

Yeah, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

Good luck in your swindling...er.... sales!

[Pol]

I'm basing this on the following assumptions:

1. The core driver/motivation for the economy is superiority in combat - be it vs Mob or PC.
2. Superiority in combat as it's evaluated in terms of equipment is determined by: dmg, weapon average, hr, da, -svs, ac, str and dex.
3. Having several long-lived followings where the FLI can store EQ, by definition, inflates the economy. Since wealth is measured by the power of randoms, having 7+ years of access to random items allows certain followings to amass hoards or good items. This is a side effect of having an established player base - something I've witnessed first-hand while running Bruehawk's.
4. In a similar manner, storage characters also help inflate the economy.
5. There is, essentially, *one* way to be equipped to be successful in PvP combat - acquire effective levels and wear +dmg/hr and to a lesser extent da and -svs gear. Note that for the purposes of this discussion, I am discounting tactics, class selection, etc. and limiting the assumption to just equipment.

*Disclaimer!* - I'm offering some hypothetical implemented solutions below just to illustrate potential and not spur debate on the pros and cons of any particular course of action yet.

I see this as requiring a solution which attacks multiple fronts:

1. Make other equipment valuable.

Other stats such as con, wis, int, chr, luck, mr, hp's, moves, etc have less overall value because of their lack of contribution to combat. They're used only during prime levels and once a character has reached the top of the heap, discarded in favor of pure combat gear. Consequently, the richest characters generate no demand for what amounts to 75% of the random items available.

To combat this, broaden the economic base, and provide a larger source of valuable items, find ways to make these stats affect combat or make them more effective overall.

For example:


Have WIS, DEX and CON contribute directly to SVS
Have LUCK directly affect frequency of critical hits or HR.
Make MR more effective by requiring less of it to have a tangible effect and/or have it protect against both targeted and area spells (or even breath weapons).
Have DEX affect HR and frequency of landing second and third attack.
Develop skills that require CHR to be effective, or increase the success of certain spells (e.g., Fear, Charm Person, Sleep, Confusion, etc.) based on the caster's CHR.


2. Reduce the capacity of FLI's and Storage Characters to hold unused gear.

How this can be implemented is open to debate and I'm sure there will be many potentially controversial suggestions.

What's pertinent to this conversation, however, is agreement or disagreement with the general definition of the solution in principle. Places where gear piles up and goes unused, whether it's banked against eq loss or held in reserve to twink low levels, stalls the economy. The general idea is to get these items either in use or circulating or out of the game and needing replacement.

Some ideas on this:


Limit the capacity of FLI inventories based on number of followers or Ranking.
Allow randoms in inventory to purge in a similar manner to limited items (with perhaps an extended time period). Accelerate this for items on low or mid-level chars who have not logged in regularly or maintained some form of activity.
Have NPC thieves steal not only gold, but potentially items from inventory.
Include a possibility that random items will be inventory flagged such that they disappear when the PC dies.
I'm not fond of this suggestion personally, but I understand the impact it has on the game so I'm compelled to make it - put limits of items which can be placed in the Donation Pit. There's no reason for someone to pay 10k for a 3con item when all they have to do is watch the pit for a day or two and get it for free.


3. Provide additional desirable things to spend gold on.

If value is added to other types of equipment, this will spur the desire to buy. However, in order to exchange tangible goods (i.e., equipment) for gold, there has to be incentive to sell too.

To that end, the uses for gold should be expanded to provide things that would actually be in demand.

For example:


The ability to purchase training sessions to increase stats, mana or hit points. Make them expensive enough to prevent abuse, but cheap enough to be attainable - 1mil to 2mil, for example, for trains up to MAX and perhaps 6mil-8mil to raise a stat 1point above normal racial MAX.
Imprintable potions. One of the down sides to spheres is that there is a high chance of failure for both creating *and* using them. Even though 30k is not that expensive, most players won't bother making the investment because of the opportunity cost involved in making them. Having potions, however, which require just an imprint and no charges and are failure-proof to use would have great value, I think. As they are single-use and personal effect only, it wouldn't be unbalanced, and would be attractive to a buyer if sold in the 20-50k range, I think.
Protection Amulets - amulets which absorb damage when worn to a certain capacity. Once that capacity is reached, they are destroyed. Perhaps a Minor version which absorbs 150hp of damage for 150k and a Major version which absorbs 300hp for 250k. Abusable? Sure. I could forsee stocking up these items in inventory and constantly swapping them during a fight. However, 1200hp of protection would set one back 1mil and 1200hp of damage is easily encountered during a big fight. It would be worth it for a big mobm or PK, however - the kind of thing one plans for and sells lots of gear to finance.
Items and/or armor which a Shaman can imprint with Totem spells that increase stats (Owl = +wis, Boar = +con, Weasel = +dex, etc). Not only does it give an alternative to dmg/hr simples, it would also increase the value of Shaman to the game overall.
Crazy Al's Magic Clearinghouse - for the low low price of just 20k, you get a random item - anything from AC1 -10mvs Cloth to +5dmg Titanium.
When randoms do purge (or get removed due to failure to pay fines) have Mish auction them or supply locate bids with them rather than just remove the items.


Anyway, in summary - to fix the economy, I think 3 things need to happen:

1. Reduce storage capacity so items have to be sought on the open market or randomed rather than retrieved from cached stores.
2. Give people a reason to buy more and varied stuff.
3. Give people a reason to sell and acquire/spend gold.

Pol O'Song.

[orpik]

How would it actually play out? People would not like to use their good gear, so they would carry crap sets for messing around. Ie no one would spar bc that would mess up their eq. No one would just hit mobs when they didn't need exp, bc that would mess up their eq. think about flis now who don't wear their best eq bc of how their eq can get degraded.

So yes this would mean people would start hoarding eq more. It would also mean expers would have to deal with constant degrading while pkers could limit the amount of time their eq is worn, or used, however the degradation works. Ie you would hurt expers the most. More importantly it would mean people would not want to log on with great eq bc it would ruin the eq. I don't see how this helps the game.

I agree with the analogy to aciding mobs. I've played on muds where you can't save your equipment and hated it. That is in effect what your idea would accomplish, just over a longer time period. People like to move forward not backwards with their sets, this is why people do not venture into zones with etching mobs absent some powerful insentive.

For many people acquiring a simple ring is a huge task. It took me years to acquire my first one. Why go through all that effort if the item is going to degrade? It is worth the effort because it means somethign to have a simple and it gives you and edge, if you take that away, there is no longer a point in buying a simple. If you ruin equipment, there will soon no longer be a reason to play the game. Exping is great, but once you have maxed out your levels you want to build a set, not just collect nice pieces which you can't use for fear of ruining them.

If you realy like the idea of eq that degrades like this, just play medieva or one of the other muds which is based around this rather than a random code. Lets not ruin TFC.

[Solaron]

For many people acquiring a simple ring is a huge task. It took me years to acquire my first one. Why go through all that effort if the item is going to degrade? It is worth the effort because it means somethign to have a simple and it gives you and edge, if you take that away, there is no longer a point in buying a simple. If you ruin equipment, there will soon no longer be a reason to play the game. Exping is great, but once you have maxed out your levels you want to build a set, not just collect nice pieces which you can't use for fear of ruining them.


Simples would not be affected.

You would be most harshly affected, since the characters with uber-gear would have the hardest time replacing it in the rare chance that the item is ever destroyed. I don't expect you to embrace the idea.

[orpik]

why do people safe sit? because they do not want to lose the eq they worked hard to gain and for lack of anything to do.
What makes you think they want to lose their eq by degradation? Degradation will be a disincentive to do anything out of safe for fear of messing up your set and the would lead to worse forms of "safe sitting" ie not playing a nicely equipped char unless the right prey are on, otherwise playing a char with junk eq on etc...

[Solaron]

why do people safe sit? because they do not want to lose the eq they worked hard to gain and for lack of anything to do.
What makes you think they want to lose their eq by degradation? Degradation will be a disincentive to do anything out of safe for fear of messing up your set and the would lead to worse forms of "safe sitting" ie not playing a nicely equipped char unless the right prey are on, otherwise playing a char with junk eq on etc...

The reactions you speak of may be YOUR reaction and those geared like you. As I said, I don't expect you to embrace the idea.

[Anonymous Mammal]

Unfortunatly, I think I would have to agree with Orpik. No matter the value of my equipment, I would not want to log on and sit in safe and let my equipment slowly degrade. I would not want to go out and exp because that would increase the degradation rate. I would eventually need to kill something in order to get gold to repair said equipment, which then would further degrade the equipment from having to kill something to get the gold to repair it. It just sounds like an endless cycle of trying to get gold to repair eq that eventually may not be repairable.

There are several things to do while on TFC and having to worry that your eq may degrade (regardless of what you're doing) to the point that it gets destroyed shouldn't be one of them.

I don't have all the time in the world to play TFC and what little time I do have, I would not want to have to waste it golding in order to keep my equipment in good condition.

[Solaron]

Unfortunatly, I think I would have to agree with Orpik. No matter the value of my equipment, I would not want to log on and sit in safe and let my equipment slowly degrade.

Please read my idea again. That would never happen.


I would not want to go out and exp because that would increase the degradation rate.

Sure, the gear would degrade... slowly. The chances of it ever actually disappearing are tiny.


I would eventually need to kill something in order to get gold to repair said equipment, which then would further degrade the equipment from having to kill something to get the gold to repair it. It just sounds like an endless cycle of trying to get gold to repair eq that eventually may not be repairable.

Wow, you've taken my idea and applied the worst case scenario AND added in twists! Thanks!


There are several things to do while on TFC and having to worry that your eq may degrade (regardless of what you're doing) to the point that it gets destroyed shouldn't be one of them.

Once again, read my idea. Thanks. Again.

[Anonymous Mammal]

I have read your idea. I disagree with your idea and do not believe it necessary to improve any aspect of TFC.

From a coding stand point, it would be more trouble than it would be worth.

I do not believe this kind of "solution" will fix any problems and only create more.

Once again, I have read your idea.

[Anathema]

I have read your idea. I disagree with your idea and do not believe it necessary to improve any aspect of TFC.

From a coding stand point, it would be more trouble than it would be worth.

I do not believe this kind of "solution" will fix any problems and only create more.

Once again, I have read your idea.

I think people are losing sight of the point that this suggestion was originally an alternative to an eqwipe which many people feel is necessary. It was suggested as a compromise. Therefore, if you start from the basic premise that it is fine to have people with eq that is far superior than anyone else, that the lack of playerbase and increase in good eq does not require a deflation of the current eq, and that balance doesnt matter, then of course you will not like this idea.

As an alternative to an all out eqwipe this idea has merit.

Shuger

[Pol]

I tend to agree with Orpik in terms of eq degradation - in theory, one *should* be constantly looking for the next replacement piece. However, this circles around to the strategy of hoarding to compensate. If one finds a piece that's not as good as is worn, but still better than average, I think the tendency would be to hoard it rather than sell it into circulation.

This could possibly be mitigated by the ability to repair something back to its original condition, however I think this fails to address the original problem. All this approach would do is separate a character from his/her gold and become another hoop to jump through.

One has to think, as well, of the things which motivate players. It may be the PK, getting the next level, exploring a zone one has never visited before, trying out class/race combinations, becoming the biggest buffest character possible, etc. For some few strange ones (like...er....me, for example ::blink:: ) randoming is fun, but I suspect it's more of a chore for most than a pasttime. Once one has a kit in place, there's enjoyment to be had in using it, but not so much in hedging against its eventual destruction.

I can completely support purging unused items, even randoms, to prevent massive hoarding. I totally agree with the idea that the "good stuff" should be in play on an active character. Not only because of the chance of it being lost exists, but also because someone is using it actively to enjoy the game.

I think the idea of arbitrarily destroying equipment, however, doesn't solve the problem and in fact may exascerbate it.

Pol O'Song.

[Solaron]

I have read your idea. I disagree with your idea and do not believe it necessary to improve any aspect of TFC.

From a coding stand point, it would be more trouble than it would be worth.

I do not believe this kind of "solution" will fix any problems and only create more.

Once again, I have read your idea.

If you have read my idea, where did you get the idea that the EQ would degrade outside of combat?

If you have read my idea, where did you get the idea that you would be forced to do nothing but gold all day to afford the ability to repair?

Reading comprehension for the win.

[Anonymous Mammal]

If you have read my idea, where did you get the idea that the EQ would degrade outside of combat?

If you have read my idea, where did you get the idea that you would be forced to do nothing but gold all day to afford the ability to repair?From responces to your idea.

[Tynian]

I sense that we've come to the end of a good thread. Thanks for the great ideas and interesting points.

I share some misgivings with this idea. Nonetheless, I think it deserves another look once I start concentrating more on the economy. There are enough basic game play issues that need to be addressed first.

Thanks again.