10 minute login restrictions

[Tynian]

How do you feel about the 10 minute login restrictions that prevent PKing, corpse looting, and similar activities in the first 10 minutes after one logs in? Is the time too short? Too long? Does it cause more problems than it cures, or vice versa?

[locatus]

I think it wouldn't hurt to cut it down to perhaps 5 mins?

[Solaron]

Agreed - drop it down quite a bit.

[Jashon]

I think cutting it down is a good idea--as long as it not reduced to a minute or two. But now matter what it is reduced to there will be people waiting for it to expire and cursing that it takes so long.

[Tynian]

I think cutting it down is a good idea--as long as it not reduced to a minute or two.

So, you'd suggest lowering it to the 3 - 9 minute range? ::whistle::

[Solaron]

Actually, nothing is wrong with 3 minutes. If I remember correctly, the major reason for it was to stop people logging on when they heard about a death and to stop someone from waiting "in the wings" so to speak, and just logging on and running to TC for a surprise rumble, etc.

With the protection and rules we already have for newbies, lowering this timer shouldn't be an issue. TFC has many, many regulations, rules and red tape and its only been growing. I don't think lessening it here and there will do anything but good.

[Tynian]

TFC has many, many regulations, rules and red tape and its only been growing. I don't think lessening it here and there will do anything but good.

While I agree with this sentiment in general, I wonder about its application in this case. After all, the login restriction effectively enforces the tiniest bit of character separation, and it enforces it evenly. From my point of view, this is superior to most of the other "regulations, rules and red tape" that depends on god+ to enforce.

Why is that few minutes so important? You can still PK. You can still get into position to do whatever it is you're going to do. What you can't do is switch between all your characters like a giant tool kit for PK situations.

I have not gone crazy with enforcing character separation, primarily because I see better uses for my time. And fortunately, the login restrictions also dissuade some of the biggest abuses.

[Tay]

how about make if diffrent everytime you log in, so it may be 3 mins, it may be one minute, it may still be 10 minutes, its that fact of not knowin that can make all the diffrence

[pitt]

I don't have any problem with the length of restrictions ;)

What I find irritating quite often is that the skills/spells are totally restricted, not just restricted in pvp. I can't make a bag of a mob corpse or steal from a mob in the restricted times, which I do find is a pain quite often.

[Katrana]

how about make if diffrent everytime you log in, so it may be 3 mins, it may be one minute, it may still be 10 minutes, its that fact of not knowin that can make all the diffrence

This could be abused by someone logging in and out trying to get that minute. There would have to be some more coding behind it, that would then prevent the abuse of trying to get the lower restriction by logging in and out. It's doable though. Cool idea though.

[Katrana]

Why is that few minutes so important? You can still PK. You can still get into position to do whatever it is you're going to do. What you can't do is switch between all your characters like a giant tool kit for PK situations.


*Enter retired pk following immortal* LOL

I may be able to answer this. Few minutes is important for the big named pk'ers. Someone who is skilled, Ink/Orpik and others of that calibur can find a target within 2 minutes of logging in. Typically, a good pk'er will log out with a big invis, either level 30 mage, or by scroll, or god. So when they log in they have a bit of time to do somethings. At the 2.5 min mark or less (if still invis'ed) they can be at a person and ready to attack. Typically by 10 minutes the whole mud has been alerted to their presence, and everyone has hit safe, and no one leaves or runs out until they log in. Even if they are invis this happens, because people randomly will locate for the restrings the 'big guns' are wearing. For those that pk, it gets boring. So they don't bother much anymore by even logging in. Why bother, they're level 50, and by the time the 10 mins is up, there is no one to kill as they've quit or are in safe.

As for getting into position...that's typically mages that need to do that with wiz marks or this that and the other. A good mage can have the chamber marked and other good places marked within 3 minutes of logging in. Give another 2 for finding a target, and that'll give ya 5 mins and their ready for what they need to do.

Now granted the time will increase if they have limited potions to pop. But not every good pk'er has a stash of limiteds to repop.

Anyway, that's my thought on the 10 mins.

[Solaron]

Why is that few minutes so important? You can still PK. You can still get into position to do whatever it is you're going to do. What you can't do is switch between all your characters like a giant tool kit for PK situations.



If someone attacks you and THEY die, you can't even loot their corpse (or couldn't last time I checked, that may have been stealth-changed) within the 10 minutes. There are quite a few instances where the restrictions restrict much more than PK.

It does more than just restrict the character separation and PK-char swapping issues. These issues would be addressed with a much shorter time frame, like 3 minutes. Now, people actually wait 9 minutes or so before stopping XPing and logging off, because they know they're safe. It's sad!

[Tynian]

If someone attacks you and THEY die, you can't even loot their corpse [...] within the 10 minutes.

That's an interesting point.

[Isolas]

I enjoy the login code as-is and would dislike changes. I think it effectively serves the purpose it was put forth for.

[Solaron]

I enjoy the login code as-is and would dislike changes. I think it effectively serves the purpose it was put forth for.

The point is that it serves more than its purpose and it, in many ways, a hindrance. A shorter set of restrictions would still serve the purpose while not being as constrictive for non-PK purposes, as the current restructions are.

[jaerith]

I'd have to go with Sol on this one. When I began my mud career ten years ago, I hated PK. I didn't understand it, I was frustrated, and it nearly made me quit.

But you know what happened, then? I tried it. I understood what the others had invested in such a thing, the feeling one gets when a PK goes perfectly down to the letter. It is nearly impossible to set up a PK 1vs1 these days and have it end within the first minute. (that, in my old opinion, is a good pk..one that starts and ends VERY quickly before anyone realizes what's happened).

Can't surprise people with your presense if they've known you were there for 10 minutes. I understand there needs to be a time limit..but a couple minutes should suffice to keep the vultures at bay and if you're really worried about something like character-hopping, why not put that restriction in on the login screen? why does the whole mud need to know? When people put their name/pass in, have it tell them "you have 5 minutes until login is complete". They can go grab a cup of coffee, use the can, grab a beer..etc. when 5 minutes is up, they hit enter and no one is the wiser that they've waited 5 minute. (or 10, or 2, etc)

One of the worst moments of dread as a victim in a PK is seeing "So and so fades into existance" (of course the other worst one is realizing less than 10 seconds later that you're at 5% health..but I digress)

[Tynian]

We'll try 5 minutes... ::brood::

[jaerith]

I really wasn't trying to influence the decision here. Just attempting to find a happy medium between the two "worlds". Tynian(and others) don't want people to be hopping on/off and switching characters to suit their own personal needs/vendettas, and Sol(and others) wants the surprise put back into PK..I think the medium area to be reached is the 5(2, 10?) minute wait at the login screen. THat way both parties are satisfied and the element of surprise is still there. (or even a choice. wait 5(2, 10, etc) minutes at login, or log in and have 5(10?) minutes of limited play.

[wish]

Thank you, Tynian, for reducing the login restriction.

I think Jaerith's idea is an excellent one. Why not make the waiting period outside of visible game play? Unless the goal of the login restriction was to give potential victims a "heads up" to potential attackers, (which I do not think it ever was), I see no reason not to put folks who login into "limbo" for 5 minutes.

Either that, or create additional login or logout areas, not just the guild. Yes, I know that we can "drop link" in any room, but technically that is illegal. If creating a limbo zone for logins is not feasible, then I recommend expanding login and logout rooms to include hometown safe rooms.

Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave

[Tynian]

I think Jaerith's idea is an excellent one. Why not make the waiting period outside of visible game play?

Oops, must have missed the suggestion.

I don't like it. Being able to login gives you the ability to do almost anything. Being stuck so that you cannot fully login until the "wait" time expires would be much more disruptive to the vast majority of the players.

[wish]

Okay, I can see where that is important, especially for those that don't PK.

So, how about my suggestion to expand login and logout areas? Or does that open up too many holes for cheating?

[Thor]

I thought I read this suggestion somewhere, but I couldn't find it again. Whomever said it, if anyone, I like the idea so I'll bring it up again...

Why not have the option of where to spend the log in restrictions. Perhaps on the screen that says "Press Enter to Continue..." you could have a message like, "You may wait here, not visible to anyone logged in, for your restrictions, or press enter to enter the game and spend your 5 minutes logged into the realm." This way the fast character switching for pks is still restricted and the pkers can still have the element of surprise as long as they spend the 5 minutes at the first login screen.

[Tynian]

So, how about my suggestion to expand login and logout areas? Or does that open up too many holes for cheating?

I don't see what it has to do with the login restrictions, nor does it seem to address the issue that caused me to implement the login restrictions in the first place. Could you tell me more...?

[Tynian]

Why not have the option of where to spend the log in restrictions.

I envision certain people playing one character while loading up another "in the wings," just in case. It also necessitates reworking code to take "connected but not in game" time into account, which we currently don't do.

But, primarily, this is not something I really want to spend time on. From my POV, the login restrictions accomplish the goal. While I understand why some people don't like them, I just don't understand how it makes or breaks the game.

Which leads me to another question: What has happened with the PKing environment that causes the "camp in safe" behavior that some have said makes the login restrictions so onerous? In the past, surprise wasn't the only way to PK someone. Or was it? You tell me.

As for the login restrictions themselves, I'm all for seeing what impact the 5 minute restrictions have.

[wish]

The connection of login restrictions and expanding the rooms where you can log in or out from relates to the ability of a person to legally shield themselves from detection when they login.

When you login to the guild, whoever is in the room that you login to, see's you. Invis is really no protection anymore, since a level 30 mage invis can pretty much be seen by everybody these days with a TS amulet or a pumped detect invis. Even a god invis can be seen this way.
The only tool available is to hide, which at least in the first few ticks is easily detectable by pretty much everybody. Shamans can still detect your presence even after that period has worn off, and besides it is not very easy to remain hidden for 5 full minutes. Ftell's turn off hide. Whoz turns off your hide. Everything turns off hide.

Let's say for the sake of argument that you make it past the login restrictions undetected by using hide. You are still in the guild. The simple act of leaving the guild pretty much ensures you are going to be detected. If you dally in the guild in an attempt to locate a target, the jig is completely up.

If hometown saferooms were also login and out capable, this would at least provide some measure of shielding from detection, simply because there aren't as many people traversing those rooms.

This may all be moot, if philosophically you want everyone to be detectable when they initially logon. Tynian is right, surprise isn't the only way to pk someone, but in my experience it is more than 50% of a successful pk. If you are a known pker, once you are detected, people are far more wary. They sit in safe rooms, they set alarms for you specifically, etc. etc. The fact is that simply getting in an initial attack on someone who knows you are around and doesn't want to be attacked is not an easy thing to do, and I am fine with that, as it follows logically. What should be made more difficult, in my opinion, is detection of potential threats.

Then again, I have always been on the "more pks, not less" side of this argument, so take this for what it's worth.

Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave

[Tynian]

This may all be moot, if philosophically you want everyone to be detectable when they initially logon.

[...]

What should be made more difficult, in my opinion, is detection of potential threats.

Then again, I have always been on the "more pks, not less" side of this argument, so take this for what it's worth.

I don't have a strong feeling one way or another about people being detectable when they initially log in.

My biggest (PK) goal is simple - the victim should always have a chance. The challenge, of course, is finding a balance. For example, if all one has to do to escape a PK is recall, escape may be too easy. If, on the other hand, you can be killed in a single swing, escape may be too difficult (to pick extremes).

You bring up an interesting point how easy it is to detect threats. Prior to version 3.0, any invis was detectable by any detect invis. There was no concept of invis "power." I'm sure the years have fogged my memory, but PK florished prior to the invis change. Getting a detect was relatively easy. So long as you had a detect and were sufficiently conditioned to whozone every 2.5 seconds (maybe that was just me ;)), there were few surprises... in theory. In reality, you may forget to whoz, or get distracted by a mob you were fighting, etc., and a PKer could still get the drop on you.

I wonder if the possibility that your detect isn't good enough to detect all threats isn't at least a contributing factor for why people guild sit when a famous killer logs in. You get word they're online -- but will you be able to see them? Maybe. Maybe not. Better recall.

Could it be that from a PK standpoint, the possibility of being undetectable may actually be a hinderance to PKing, that people are more likely than ever not to chance it because they can't see what's coming?

Food for thought.

[Thor]

I wonder if the possibility that your detect isn't good enough to detect all threats isn't at least a contributing factor for why people guild sit when a famous killer logs in. You get word they're online -- but will you be able to see them? Maybe. Maybe not. Better recall.

Could it be that from a PK standpoint, the possibility of being undetectable may actually be a hinderance to PKing, that people are more likely than ever not to chance it because they can't see what's coming?

Food for thought.

I think that's a very good point. I know my mortals stay out of guild a lot more, regardless of who is on (yes even Ink or Orpik) as long as I can see them. If I can no longer see a threat for any length of time, I find a safe room. Once I'm in safe the pker's chances of pking me went from "there is a chance" to nothing at all. I would say, being able to be seen allows the attacker at least some chance, at least that's how I play. Being undetectable, I think, would cause people to leave safe a lot less and therefore the chances of a pk will go down even more.

[Katrana]

I think another reason why people don't leave safe is they feel they have more to lose. In the day when the majority of pks happened, there were not nearly as many very nice combo items, or high attribute items out. So then in respect 'they had nothing to lose', if they died, it was a mediocre set anyway, and they can regear. Now yes, today people can regear in 2/3 damage set and nice leveling set in a day, maybe two. But a 2/3 damage set is nothing these days. And for a decently geared character who is leveling, it is hard to level. I keep hearing metal wearers getting smacked around, and making it hard to level. So if you lose your nice set, you lose more than your gear, you lose your ability to level (smoothly and nicely) as well.

One other reason, is people like to talk. Alot of the people who chill in safe, are there for social reasons, and have alot of friends here, and perhaps have no interest in leveling, or pk'ing. They just might want to sit and be social and perhaps run around and level with friends, but they might not leave unless their buddies are around to take them.

My two thoughts!::huh::

Edit: One last thought too, people might think, I'm not going to make the rich/best geared better with my corpse, even if it isn't as good. I've been guilty of that, before I immorted. I remember not leaving because I did not want those pk'ers getting my corpse so they could get richer. They were rich weasels already.

[Maeron]

I think it has to do with the lowered player base as well. I'm xping my mid level smooshable mage/cleric/shaman whatever, and uber eq'd pker logs on. I know he'll be bored soon, and once he's gone, I can return to mindlessly clearing out the same zone I always use.

It seems to me, I used to log on for xp, and there was always someone on to kill and be killed, I'd be forced to change zones, and got pretty well used to ecaping attacks, because there wasn't going to be a huge window when no one was going to attempt to kill me.

I just don't see why I'd need to xp when 70+dmg characters are drooling over my equipment.

[Tynian]

I think another reason why people don't leave safe is they feel they have more to lose. In the day when the majority of pks happened, there were not nearly as many very nice combo items, or high attribute items out.

Good point, and you're right -- there are undoubtedly many factors at play. I don't think equipment dependency is as big of a problem as it was back when I was trying to wean people off of the more potent gear -- however long ago that was -- but it's still there.

I don't know how hard it is for the unconnected character to re-equip, but I suppose that's the main advantage of being in a following -- not having to start over from scratch.

[Tynian]

It seems to me, I used to log on for xp, and there was always someone on to kill and be killed, I'd be forced to change zones, and got pretty well used to ecaping attacks, because there wasn't going to be a huge window when no one was going to attempt to kill me.

I just don't see why I'd need to xp when 70+dmg characters are drooling over my equipment.

So what you're saying is we don't have enough PKers online most of the time, so we have more safe sitters when they are on?? :>

I see your point.

[wish]

Tynian said:

You bring up an interesting point how easy it is to detect threats. Prior to version 3.0, any invis was detectable by any detect invis. There was no concept of invis "power."

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I believe that this did not apply to God invis, which was the predominant stealth tool used by mortals in 2.x.


Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave

[Tynian]

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I believe that this did not apply to God invis, which was the predominant stealth tool used by mortals in 2.x.


Merc standard invis, which is what we used prior to version 3, is either on or off. The concept of higher level mages (or gods) casting more powerful invises was a v3 "innovation."

wizinvis, which Immortals use to hide from mortals, has operated the same since we went live, but of course is for Imms only.

[jaerith]

So disallow god invis. leave it to us mortals to invis each other and let the chaos(?) begin.

that however screws with a very useful and sometimes decision making tool for players who join a following. "My god can keep me alive longer than your god can." "My god logs in more than yours, Nyah!"

Kind of makes you wonder what would happen if we all had no one to rely on but each other and ourselves..if gods were taken entirely out of the whole spells loop.

[Tynian]

Kind of makes you wonder what would happen if we all had no one to rely on but each other and ourselves..if gods were taken entirely out of the whole spells loop.

What would you like them to do, if anything?

[Solaron]

Nothing? Use mortal led guilds and have just a small group of immortals to handle administration, questing, newbie helping, etc?

Then again, I've grown partial to player-led groups in recent years.

[Tynian]

Nothing? Use mortal led guilds and have just a small group of immortals to handle administration, questing, newbie helping, etc?

I'd be fine with that (aside from the newbie helping -- I feel strongly that the player groups, be it followings or guilds, help new players).

This is starting to sound like a whole other discussion.

It's probably time to close this thread, since its original purpose has died off (and given birth to a couple of ideas that probably deserve their own thread).

Thanks for all your help!