The first ten levels.

[Xerit]

Ok, I've been playing this game for a long time on and off and one of the things that has always bugged me is the way the first 10 levels, which are the hardest levels to control via gear because you simply don't have access to any, have a disproportionately large effect on the viability of any given character.

I have made a large number of characters over the years and (with the exception of the first one due to ignorance) every single one has probably had to be re-rolled a minimum of 2 or 3 times in order to get something I could live with. This problem in my opinion stems in large part from the lack of gear available to sub level 10 players and especially for those first say 5 or 6 which for an experienced player can be done in less than an hour.

Although I'm sure everyone here can do math I'd like to point out that these 5 levels (of which i think its very rare that without help you will be equipped for) represent 1/6th of your primary levels. That is a huge portion of your end-game stats being left almost entirely up to chance with the deck stacked against you since you can't even balance your stats out.

I'd like to propose that as a solution we find a way to make it so for these first few levels (probably no need to go above say 5, but I would personally like to see all the way to 10 where your stats stop adjusting) less of game of chance.

My personal solution would to be either have leveling sets given out by say Algenara or bump up the stats on the pummel stick to just automatically max you out across the board.

Either way I think the "helping hand" should be withdrawn after whatever level is deemed appropriate. (The same way the pummel stick is eventually withdrawn)

If I'm the only one that perceives this as a problem I will of course just be quiet about it.

[Belsambar]

I'm sorta with this one, it can be hard for a first timer to get proper gear for levelling....

...then again, we all did it. Some, less than others (some of us were luckier than others, or had friends helping us, or some nice random person who knew what they were doing stepped up and said 'Do you need help? Here's what you do...')

[Ylang]

I agree entirely. I've always resisted hitting up friends for newbie gear. I'm a new character, right, so how can I be best friends with the good and great (or evil and great) of the realm? I used to think it a good idea not to join a following until level 10 or 15, but now it's mandatory at level 5, just to get some basic level gear arranged for you. It's hard to play a newbie while separating characters properly, and the penalty for doing so, while many don't bother with character separation, is both large and unfair.

[Zaku]

Ya, I've had friends that have been driven away because of the randomness of the first 10 levels, even if you are setup perfectly by an FLI. Now I'm not against somewhat random levels so that every character does not turn out with the exact same stats, but remove the chance of an abysmal level(where you gain 1-2 mana). Nothing is more depressing then working really hard, while wearing perfectly set gear, to get that level and then receive atrocious gains.

I'm not suggesting that every level should be an amazing level , just less levels that are 1-2 mana or 5-6 hp. :P I find this is most prominent in the first 10 levels and can really hurt players who are returning/new.

Zaku, Spirit of the Elemental forces.

[Xerit]

I'm sorta with this one, it can be hard for a first timer to get proper gear for levelling....

...then again, we all did it. Some, less than others (some of us were luckier than others, or had friends helping us, or some nice random person who knew what they were doing stepped up and said 'Do you need help? Here's what you do...')

I realize you're sorta agreeing with me Bel so don't take this badly, but that kind of logic is flawed.

Just because WE had to deal with a problem doesn't mean it isn't a problem or that we shouldn't try to solve it for others so they don't have to deal with it. Especially in a game where the idea right now is to try to attract new players who may or may not be up to having to deal with all these problems right off the bat. We don't want people to become discouraged when 10 or 15 levels in someone finally breaks the news to them that their character is basically a dead end due to poor early level stat management.

[Xerit]

Ya, I've had friends that have been driven away because of the randomness of the first 10 levels, even if you are setup perfectly by an FLI. Now I'm not against somewhat random levels so that every character does not turn out with the exact same stats, but remove the chance of an abysmal level(where you gain 1-2 mana). Nothing is more depressing then working really hard, while wearing perfectly set gear, to get that level and then receive atrocious gains.

I'm not suggesting that every level should be an amazing level , just less levels that are 1-2 mana or 5-6 hp. :P I find this is most prominent in the first 10 levels and can really hurt players who are returning/new.

Zaku, Spirit of the Elemental forces.

I personally don't care if its taken quite that far or not, i'd just like to see people sub level 10 always treated as having max in all stats in regards to leveling up. For that matter you wouldn't even really need to adjust their stats just remove the effect of stats on the first ten levels if thats an easier to code way to go. Ten maybe have a message or something explaining that either at level 1 or at level 10 (or both) that this "grace period" will end at effective level 10 and they will have to be responsible for their own leveling stats.

[Belsambar]

But you know, the old argument comes up...

"Is this the Final Easy...or the Final Challenge?"

The idea of it being a 'problem' is perspective. If you're bringing in new people, or see new people, try to help them equip past it. Help them figure out how to level, heaven forbid, create a new character and level WITH them!
((Personally, I make THEM lead when I do that so they get a better grasp on gameplay...and the levelling character you make to help them can even be a completely disposible character, which means, you don't need to worry about equipment for it...and thus anything you get can help them...))

There's ways to make it easier on newbies without making it EASY. I'm not sure I agree with just making everything perfect for the first 10 levels regardless.

Unless you're going to give all the older players bonuses for what they might have messed up on (Hey, I could really use that 50-60 mana I missed out on on 2mana levels between 1-10...)

But I mean, really. Half of the fun is the challenge. Maybe we just need to teach people that first, so they know HOW to enjoy the game, hehe

[Ylang]

My problem isn't with how hard it is -- it can be harder and I'd probably be in favour -- but with the difference if you happen to have a sugar-daddy at level 2 that other don't have, and you wouldn't have if you hadn't told your buddies in advance you're creating a new character. If nothing can be done about the latter, there's merit in suggesting doing something about the former.

[Cytoxan]

I disagree. Those first 5 to 10 levels are crucial in distinguishing characters. Unless you want everyone to end up with the same hp/mana as everyone else, you should leave well enough alone. Part of this game is living with your short comings. Deal with what you have and not what you think you should have.

[Belsambar]

It's also that much more impressive to build a super char in the game if you CAN do it without help, whether by hook, by crook, or by extreme luck and talent. Hell, it's hard enough to do if you DO have help, so I think Cyto was right.

Should be left as is, after all, it's worked well enough so far.

[Ylang]

I... a game where the idea right now is to try to attract new players who may or may not be up to having to deal with all these problems right off the bat. We don't want people to become discouraged when 10 or 15 levels in someone finally breaks the news to them that their character is basically a dead end due to poor early level stat management.

I tend to agree. I know a lot of people who drop a game if they're not grabbed by the first 15 minutes. Okay, maybe we don't want those, but we don't want to discourage newbies either. It may be the final challenge, but the world is different now. You can no longer assume familiarity with muds and text-based games, and you need to compete with games that are geared for today's attention-deficit world.

That said, I'm not convinced that is the best argument in favour of Xerit's idea. I'll stick with what I said earlier, about being at a substantial disadvantage if you play the game the way it's meant to be played -- i.e. with strict character separation. Even if you're not close to a particular newbie, it's often common knowledge who their "real" character is, so your relationship becomes with the player, not the character. This detracts from the game, but the temptation to do this, if only for the sake of the first ten levels, is overwhelming. Especially if you set out to build keepers, and RP them from day one, rather than creating lots of disposable but essentially indistinguishable new characters, in the hope that one or two make it big.

[wish]

I don't comment much on ideas and such, but this is one that I have a definate opinion on. This will probably be controversial, but here goes:

Quite frankly, leveling to max your stats is a royal pain in the ass. It in no way adds to the game experience. It is a complete distraction. It is a remnant of D&D and I think it should be eliminated.

I propose that stats should be entirely race driven, and that all chars of a given race should start out with the same stats. I think that hp and mana gains should be entirely on a set schedule according to ones race, level and class, and not at all influenced by "gear". To put it bluntly, every level 30 dwarf mage would have the same hps and mana. In fact, all of the attributes would be the same for chars of the same race at a given level. Players would know that if they reach a certain level, they will have a character with definate stats.

Here is my rationale: Having to deal with leveling gear and worrying about ones stats on leveling takes away from the enjoyment of the game because players become obsessed with creating a character with decent stats so they aren't disadvantaged later on from a combat perspective. Rather than enjoying a zone and gaining experience, players spend hours finding the right combination of leveling gear to max their stats, never quite getting it right or understanding how it all works in the code behind the scenes. Out-of-char collusion with other players occurs to stack up new chars with the best leveling gear. That royally annoys new players when they realize that without this leg-up they won't have much of a chance later on. Some might argue that my suggestion will create cookie cutter characters. From a stand point of stats, they are correct. However, my feeling is that a character should ultimately be defined by the skill of the player behind the character, in terms of combat, and in role playing. Think of the NASCAR model: the cars are *supposed* to be all pretty much the same and with the same capabilities, making the races a battle between drivers rather than engineering teams. That is the way it is supposed to work, anyways!

Here are the benefits as I see them: more focus on role playing. More enjoyment for new players who can build interesting characters rather than leveling machines. Tangible rewards from leveling that can be anticipated rather than guessed at with crossed fingers, or manipulated by collusion.

Better equipment would still make one char stronger than another, but one naked dwarf would be pretty much the same as another.

Let the flames begin.

Wish the Cuttlefish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave

[Ylang]

This is essentially Xerit's idea, but with the "helping hand" lasting forever. It will solve problems, like selling your car will relieve you of the problem of flat tires. Part of the challenge of TFC -- and an important part at that -- is not just to level and fight, but to level well, and fight even if you're at a disadvantage. To stick with the metaphor, all Xerit is after is a one-year all-road-hazard warranty on the tires.

Consider me opposed. Sorry, Cuddlefish.

[wish]

Sorry, Xerit, I didn't mean to steal your idea. Consider me having summarized it and added some flair!

Nice metaphor, Ylang! If I understand you correctly, you are saying that my solution is too drastic, and would too greatly alter something that is essential to TFC.

Here is why I disagree: I am not proposing doing away with leveling (i.e. the car). I think characters should get experience points to level. This should be gained in a variety of ways, such as killing mobs, solving quests, stealing stuff, and player killing. Yes, players should absolutely get experience points for player killing!

Now, in real life two doctors who go to school for 10 years will still have varying skill level. Fine, that is real life. TFC is a game, and when you introduce such variability in game play it creates havok for both the players and the creator. That is why in Chess, a black pawn has the same capabilities as a white pawn. It reduces the rule set to enhance game play. If the power of pawns on a chessboard were to be variable, and add to that the fact that the variability is not quite decipherable by the players, that would create a game damn near unplayable. Instead, we have one of the most elegant games ever created that has endured for centuries in pretty much the same form.

This is a problem all game designers face. Added complexity may make things "more realistic", but that doesn't necessarily make them more enjoyable for the player. I don't know of anyone who regards tweaking ones stats to max out a level as enjoyable. It is simply a hurdle to be overcome. Unless someone can propose an idea that would make that hurdle enjoyable, I see no reason why it should remain part of game play.

Wish the Cuttlefish (two T's not two D's), Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave

[damian]

Xerit
Just because WE had to deal with a problem doesn't mean it isn't a problem or that we shouldn't try to solve it for others so they don't have to deal with it. Especially in a game where the idea right now is to try to attract new players who may or may not be up to having to deal with all these problems right off the bat. We don't want people to become discouraged when 10 or 15 levels in someone finally breaks the news to them that their character is basically a dead end due to poor early level stat management.

I personally don't think this is an issue. If you're new to this MUD, you'll probably ask other players for help and advice. If you're new to using any MUD at all, the HELP menu will tell you to ask other players for advice. If you discover by level 1-15 that you're stats suck, then you're not at too much of a loss to start a new character.


Wish
I propose that stats should be entirely race driven, and that all chars of a given race should start out with the same stats. I think that hp and mana gains should be entirely on a set schedule according to ones race, level and class, and not at all influenced by "gear". To put it bluntly, every level 30 dwarf mage would have the same hps and mana. In fact, all of the attributes would be the same for chars of the same race at a given level. Players would know that if they reach a certain level, they will have a character with definite stats.

I think the current relation between MAX stats and race is fine. Dwarves are wiser and Gnomes are luckier. A Dwarf with MAX Wis will always be higher than a Gnome with MAX Wis.

As Damian, the only stats I was concerned about when rolling were Wis and Int, all others were pretty low if not pitiful ( my Luck). This may have been bad judgment, or just being a newbie. However, in spite of my stats, I've truly enjoyed this character over other more successful characters.

Anyway, I agree with Bel and Cyto, a big part of the game is "living with your shortcomings" and learning how to adjust EQ or strategy to make up for it.

[Xerit]

@ Wish - Personally I wouldn't have a problem with your idea since it would open the door for making leveling stats have an even greater affect on your character (beyond leveling). However its not really what I'm asking for since I would think a major shift like that might discourage old players who would then face either a pwipe (bad bad bad) or losing all their hard work on their stats possibly losing a large chunk of their HP/Mana (also not good).

Like I said earlier, my problem here is the part of the game that most determines the effectiveness of your character long term is also the most random and hardest to control (with gear) part of the game.

I think Ylang has expressed my oppinion better than I could myself, though I don't necessarily share her disdain for Wish's Idea.

[boromir]

Hi,

We all agree that newbies are getting the short end of the stick as it were when it comes to leveling and stats.:eek:
What about having preset hp and mana gains for the first 10 levels of a newbies time here on TFC. That will give the newbie (whether a real newbie or not) a chance to get themselves oriented. At level 10, a newbie can get a message from algenara letting them know that they need to get their eq squared away for the next level if they want to keep growing. :D
The gains would be based upon the race and the average of levels for that race for hp and mana. Trains would be a different issue and perhaps best dealt with by giving the newbies that average number of trains found for all newbies at level 10. Again, level 11 on, any trains or lack of would be the players responsibility.::cool::

You considered opinons! ::up::

[morgaine]

I didn't realise there was such a big problem with stats... Morgaine has great stats, not perfect stats but stats i consider to be great. Morgaine has these great stats because I built the character to have great stats. I did the extra work to hunt down and wear the right leveling equipment, I leveled off class level during equipment changes, and i sacrificed damage for luc. I then leveled 30 OM levels and an addition 30 thief levels to see that my stats were maxed otu and that I had 7 extra trains.

Morgaines stats werent good at lvl 10. I think the only way to make a char come out with great stats at level ten is to be outragously lucky.

That said, I don't have a problem with getting a couple 2 mana 14 hp levels. Because I know that I got a couple 2 mana levels and I still have 547 after i wear int (becuase of tynians fantastic changes and the little bit of mana i got to keep by OMing my character). The point is you can always fix the character down the road, and if you can't its because you didn't work hard enough, level patiently, and wear the right gear.

A newbie might not know how to use mish or look in the pit but the rest of us do.... I don't think a newbie knows the difference between a couple bad levels and what that is going to mean for him or her 45 levels later....And when he figures it out he or she will create a new character if its that important to them, and if their character is that disasterous.

De randomising the stats is in my oppinion not logical at all...we want to encourage individualism, not destroy it.... The challenge isnt who can type faster, swing harder, or rift first. It's who can use the right combination of swings and spells for the right moment in the right place... I don't think random stats takes away from the show of player skill, because part of the skill is making the character.

Personally I would be qute bored leveling from a template, there would be no suprise.... nothing to look forward to and no dissapointments.... how boring is that?

Newbie stats are fine, things have already been done to assist them i.e. the pummel stick. I think a more realistic fix would be throwing a few more pieces of int wis and con gear into the newbie zones to help them have the eq they need to potentially recieve better levels and better gains.

[Ylang]

Newbie stats are fine, things have already been done to assist them i.e. the pummel stick. I think a more realistic fix would be throwing a few more pieces of int wis and con gear into the newbie zones to help them have the eq they need to potentially recieve better levels and better gains.

Fair comment, though it still doesn't solve the problem that a newbie who maintains character separation is at a significant disadvantage to those with OOC friends to help them from level 1.

One thing I've been thinking of is revising limited eq to better match the current random eq. It used to be possible for a newbie to collect a fairly decent limited set. Now, stats are more important than ever, and few people bother to pit weak magic eq. Unless the pit happens to be loaded, it makes little sense for limiteds you get from "big" (in newbie terms) mobs to be +1wis or +1dex.

Perhaps work through some limited items and upgrade the mundane items, found in sub-15 xp zones, by a point or so. This would also encourage real newbies to explore (and risk) more, since they know they might find limited stuff that's actually useful at the end of that dangerous cave.

[Solaron]

I just read through Wish's idea and think it's great. It solves the problem.

Any experienced player who rolls a newbie has someone give him levelling EQ. It happens. If you don't, you run the risk of being at a substantial disadvantage, and when you discover that the character you've invested so much time in stinks because of something beyond your controll... that sucks.

Characters should be separated by their skill and, later on in their life, maybe their equipment, not how many friends they have in real life willing to gear them at level 1.

[Tynian]

Without commenting specifically on Wish's solution, let me ask this:

How would we get to what he is proposing from where we are now? In other words, what would you propose as to how to convert the player files from the current system to the new system?

[Solaron]

Find an acceptable system, notify players, and depending on their levels convert their HP to the new #s... is that not doable?

The only issue would be the order in which classes were levelled. In that case, I'd probably just go with best case scenario - whatever combination gives them the most hp/mana at their level.

It'll be easy for single-class, and I can see that it would be confusing for duals/triples... I just think its worth it. Maybe it would help some of the useless +hp gear be used even... but I doubt it. :p

[morgaine]

I just read through Wish's idea and think it's great. It solves the problem.

Any experienced player who rolls a newbie has someone give him levelling EQ. It happens. If you don't, you run the risk of being at a substantial disadvantage, and when you discover that the character you've invested so much time in stinks because of something beyond your controll... that sucks.

Characters should be separated by their skill and, later on in their life, maybe their equipment, not how many friends they have in real life willing to gear them at level 1.


I have a few comments on this idea. My first comment is that when we solve problems, we should try not to create more problems. If all i get from int and wis is stronger spells and spell str and our stats are always the same then maybe i ought to always make level 30 warriors, max out on str dmg and dex and haul through levels.... or maybe mage warriors without the int and wis gear cuase well, i'll wear it later when i might needthe mana bonus. Now con becomes nearly useless if you have a pummel stick or a health amulet and of course, obviously everyone will have hte same exact stats based on character which is to me completely boring and talentless.

Second, stats are anything but beyond our control. I currently have no friends that assist my newbies, and no will for their assistance. If you believe that this is true, then you can believe that there are other people who either feel the same or have no rl friends that play tfc. A newbies doesnt know that in three days he can have a full set between mish bids and the pit, but he can certainly figure it out by loking around and reanig help files. This character, morgaine receved very little rl friend assistance, i got the assistance i needed by joining an early following... and making friends in game. My base stats weren't perfect but i've recovered. Likewise, in the past I had tons of rl friends that played and they would gear my newbies.. yet NONE of those characters ever made it to level 50, or even level 40... so i don't believe that gear from RL friends creates character longevity. Further, to be completely honest we get MORE then enough mana with the int bonuses and you barely ever get bad hp levels if you wear the con eq. How many characters out there didnt even take their magic class to 30 prime? People often iopt for more hp over mana even before the code changes... so is hp the big problem? Or is it lack of trains? That sucks but once again it is usually due to characters that chose dmg over luc while leveling.

Why take so much variability away from the game when dropping some con eq into the newbie zone could assist the problem?

Further, believe it or not... we don't all rely on RL friends to assist us in our mudding ventures. We don't all have hoardes of storage eq between us, and we don't all need hoardes of eq and perfect stats to enjoy tfc.

One more thing, characters should be seperated from their skill... maybe later on in life from their equipment... no matter what if you have rl friends they are going to help you build this equipment. The newbies will just be the ones without 30 dmg and 20 hitroll at level 2, because they don't have rl friends with uber eff 50's mass storing dmg gear since its pointless to wear anything else while leveling. It's not like the wis spell bonus and mana int bonus will compare to the bonus of wearing 30 dmg at level 10... magic missile might devastate, who cares when a two handed weapon and 30 dmg = DEMO. Let's not forget that this leveling eq that builds these stats and is necessary to wear is also the most frequent items auctioned off for pennies and found in the pit. Lets not forget the importance of variety, andl ets not destroy the great effort to meet this challenge, which has been accomplished with the int and wis bonuses, dmg caps, etc.... i.e. a ton of changes over the past few years.

-Morgaine

[morgaine]

Then what about that excitement from getting a good level or getting a train... we're just going to throw that away and give out a monotenous 17 hp 12 mana 5 pracs gain?

[Solaron]

We shouldn't have the level of randomness we do now. If you'd like to offer an alternative, bring it on.

Many successful games are based upon the static gain system and still have a broad base of magic-users and melee while still having use for stats other than pure damage. Name 99% of MMRPGS these days; they do it for precisely this reason.

[Belsambar]

I'm with Morgaine here. Half the fun of having crappy levels is how much better it makes it feel when you get a GREAT level.

As to Solaron, you know, it ALREADY goes by equipment and skills. If it just went straight by stats, lots of older players would have done nothing but die with their old 2.x characters to 3.x characters (and yes, that did happen fairly often) because of stats alone...but it's happened many a time that a 'weaker built character' with someone with lots of skills in the computer chair behind it, can take down someone who may have had 'near perfect levels' by using skills and tricks at their disposal.

Flatlining stats won't change that...I'm sort of coming to the opinion that it will decrease the noticability of how skill and eq can affect the outcome of a battle, and nevermind those that are just plain lucky, since luck has a lot to do with it too.

[Solaron]

Okay, well I have another idea that won't involve any special code or changing current characters. Let's create awesome newbie gear that they can't wear after level 10 or something, so that as long as they go through mud-school, ANY character can get good levels? This would be a good compromise.

Otherwise it just sounds to me like you guys are cool with things the way they are... Maintaining the status quo isn't doing a whole lot for getting new blood in here, but what do I know?

What we're doing is creating an atmosphere where you have to have friends to be a good character. CAN a crappy character take down a skilled one? Sure.... it's the underdog and all that jazz. But it's rare and it's unfair to new players who don't KNOW. Maybe we should let everyone know beforehand:

Your first character will suck. Sorry! Make some friends!

[Belsambar]

I have yet to see the capability to build a 'super character' be the overall pressing matter preventing us from retaining new blood. It might be AN issue, but I hardly see it as the oh-so-pressing matter you make it out to be, Sol.

It's not about maintaining status quo. It's about preserving the spirit of TFC while identifying what is actually a detriment. If you make things TOO easy, then when challenges present themselves later, nobody is prepared to tackle them, and thus lose interest. Make it too hard, nobody wants to spend time figuring it all out.

To me, flat lining stats is just a way to make TFC more like all the rest of the cookie cutter games that come and go (it's actually a recurring theme in the newer MMORPG's I keep trying out, that completely bore me because there is NO variation between characters....variation amongst characters is minimal until you get to equipment...vs a Diablo II style, which, while it allows you to build following a template and Be a cookie cutter character, it also allows you to be experimental with your build and have stat setups that may or may not be better than someone else's)

I do, however, agree with changing the eq in the mud school to something useful, even limiting it to sub 10's only. It'd be an easy fix, and would cover all the issues everyone is having...hey, you could even provide a little bit of mini-marketing amongst the newbies allowing them to trade for mud school equipment and building their understanding of the market economy TFC has.

Yes, that last bit is entirely dependent upon the players in question, but I'm sure they could figure it out. If nothing else, a line or two on the advice channel would give the information the chance to scroll past them and get absorbed for use.

[The Booga]

I think the main idea I have gotten from reading the entire thread up to this point is: Most of you players can't exercise character separation, and whine if you can't get your friends to eq you.

I pride myself on having built characters in the past without ANYONE knowing who I am. Of course, it's been a great while since I made a newbie and its possible that by now some of you know "some of me". I've had just one real life friend (Pyros) on TFC, and he stopped playing shortly after I started.

Most of my characters have sucky stats, or at least started in a world o' crap. I pride myself on having made something out of them...mostly all by myself. You can argue that I had FLI assistance so "all by myself" is false - and I did, but not because they or anyone else on the mud had my phone number. Pyros sat next to me when he was still a mortal, and then we both moved about 2500 miles away from each other when he was FLI -- and any character I had back in the day has long since purged.

I've been around a long time and am aware that some of you simply cannot exercise character separation. Gotta have someone eq you. Gotta have storage characters. Gotta only be in one following ever. Gotta fear playing many different alignments.

Levels are like Christmas - a lump of coal may be around the corner. Enjoy it nevertheless.

My advice: Play TFC like you know NO ONE. Newbies' stats & levels are fine.

[Tamar]

My advice: Play TFC like you know NO ONE. Newbies' stats & levels are fine.
I agree.

[Xerit]

I can only speak for myself but the issue for me here is not the difference between newbies who get helped and newbies who don't. My issue is that any newbie (true, or one following char sep and pretending to be true) has a large part of his end game stat makeup decided for him during a period in which gaining gear to help him level properly through normal in-character means is unlikely to impossible. Solaron has it right, the current system, especially for players completely new for the mud, might as well just come with the disclaimer that your first character is pretty much going to be terrible regardless of your efforts.

Think back to when you first started the game, did you sit around for 5 or 6 hours asking people questions about stats and how to properly stack them, and where to get gear without leveling, and how to farm gold without getting exp? Or did you, like me, go out and start leveling with nothing more than your pummel stick and your amazingly bad starting statistics to pad the random number generator in your favor? Did you keep that character? I know I didn't, he lasted until roughly 15/15 before I realized his hp/mana was so abysmally low that any continued effort was a complete waste on him. For some people coming to that realization after hours of time spent on a character is a deal breaker. All I'm proposing, and all the people who seem to be posting in agreement seem to be proposing, is an extension of the window of time we allow newbies to understand the game before they can start doing things that will have real, un-alterable consequences for their character.

I completely disagree that it would take some of the "challenge" out of TFC. The challenge in TFC comes from player conflict and exploration, not having to learn the ins and outs of the stat system within 20 minutes of creation. If we wanted to put that much emphasis on reading the help files and asking players questions we should have put a pop-quiz right before you level up to 2.

[Solaron]

So the concensus is:

1) Play like you're a newbie. (But you don't have to, and the majority of players who roll new characters won't, and new players will still be at a hellacious disadvantage, but come on champ and try anyway).

2) If you're a real TFC newbie, deal with it.

Spot on, chaps.

[Tamar]

Solaron has it right, the current system, especially for players completely new for the mud, might as well just come with the disclaimer that your first character is pretty much going to be terrible regardless of your efforts.
I guess it depends on what you're playing for. If you're all about the stats and are clueless about how stats work, yes, your first character is probably going to be terrible. Although I would argue that if you're all about the stats, you probably WILL spend a great deal of time asking people how stuff works. Maybe not though.



Think back to when you first started the game, did you sit around for 5 or 6 hours asking people questions about stats and how to properly stack them, and where to get gear without leveling, and how to farm gold without getting exp? Or did you, like me, go out and start leveling with nothing more than your pummel stick and your amazingly bad starting statistics to pad the random number generator in your favor?
I didn't even know there were "stats", so no. I spent hours trying to figure out how to move without gossiping and what I should try to attack. No pummel sticks then, so I started leveling with just what, a shirt? & some popcorn.


Did you keep that character?
Yes. Still my favorite character. Several of the ones I didn't keep have great stats.

[Solaron]

I guess it depends on what you're playing for. If you're all about the stats and are clueless about how stats work, yes, your first character is probably going to be terrible. Although I would argue that if you're all about the stats, you probably WILL spend a great deal of time asking people how stuff works. Maybe not though.


I didn't even know there were "stats", so no. I spent hours trying to figure out how to move without gossiping and what I should try to attack. No pummel sticks then, so I started leveling with just what, a shirt? & some popcorn.


Yes. Still my favorite character. Several of the ones I didn't keep have great stats.


You levelled up in a time when things were much different. It is POSSIBLE for a new player to create a character and survive. He won't excel. In 2.x, this wasn't the case. Wearing even a few magic items was pretty nice for most people.

The playerbase is smaller, more experienced and less forgiving of poorly created characters.

I've got connections, so I'm really not worried. If I roll a newbie, I'll be levelling with the best chance of getting max hp / max mana levels as possible while any true newbies could be getting 10hp levels. Yay them! :p

Is there a problem with at least increasing newbie gear stats? Current gear is fairly useless these days. The pummel stick rocks though.

[Tamar]

Is there a problem with at least increasing newbie gear stats? Current gear is fairly useless these days.
This idea kind of appeals to me, personally. Although people dump decent stuff in the pit all the time. Maybe my idea of "decent" is skewed though.

[Rykken]

Like some have said, leveling a newbie character up w/out gear is part of TFC. We've all gone through it with our first few characters and, guess what, we're still here. I do not see the relation between having real good stats and retaining players and/or attracting new players. Do you guys have evidence supporting this claim?

[Solaron]

Like some have said, leveling a newbie character up w/out gear is part of TFC. We've all gone through it with our first few characters and, guess what, we're still here. I do not see the relation between having real good stats and retaining players and/or attracting new players. Do you guys have evidence supporting this claim?

Heh, look at the who list. I'm not saying it's the only contributor, but it's one of them. When you first made your first character Rykken, things were much different. The vast majority of players weren't wearing that kind of gear, mostly because the kind of eq that many newbies wear these days doesn't exist. I see lots of newbies with connections wearing potents... there are lots of combos, +5s, and more. When we first started, I remember there being 20 other people just as bad as I was. We could afford such a steep curve for learning to make a character because we had the bodies to compensate...

We don't these days. I just find it odd that you're asking for evidence that making a NEW PLAYER's experience will encourage a NEW PLAYER to stay. Try and look at this from someone's viewpoint these days, and try and remember that this is NOT the TFC of 1995.

[vekt]

i think wish's idea is good too. stat gains are one of the least fun parts of this game. more than once i've ditched a character with poor gains. actually both stat gains and hp/mana gains fall into this category to me. at the very least, i'd like to see stats and trains dumped in favor or each race having its pre-determined max levels--maybe even with stats changed up a bit to make things more interesting.

the randomness of hp/mana doesn't really seem to add much for me either, other than a sense of bewilderment as to how some people can get so buff and i can suck so much. every level could just have a set gain and players would be on equal footing, save for skill and eq. if i start as a cleric, maybe i would just always gain 10 hp and 10 mana or something. i don't really see second classes as a problem. say i start as a warrior and gain 10 hp/level (i'm ignoring moves for now). later, i add cleric class and still always get my 10 mana but maybe second class gains of like 5 hp instead.

the "thrill" of leveling is in reaching the level and gaining the skills or abilities to me. "yay, i just got my thief to level 5! time to backstab the world..." i would love to see either or both of these changes.

[Ylang]

I think this thread was started about, and should remain about, the first ten levels.

Removing all randomness and skill from levelling would, in my view, completely destroy what attracts me to TFC. If that's how most graphical MMORPGs do it, I say that's an excellent reason to be skeptical of such a change. There's a reason I don't play them, as I'm sure there's a reason why others play both them and TFC.

I agree with Kerriariadne on character separation. Few people ever knew more than one of my characters, and it always seemed to me a weaselly way to start a newbie. For my part, I've been asked often, by people I trust to keep a secret, who I really am, since I clearly have knowledge and experience that's beyond my meagre years (I'm not /that/ good at RPing *grin*). They can ask, but I'm not telling. Not on TFC. Not here. Not in RL or IM or e-mail. In the past, I have concurrently played evil scourges and goodie-two-shoes characters, and had to pretend outrage when the latter were told about the depradations of the former. Same goes for different followings, classes, genders or races. Conversely, I don't like knowing someone's other characters, because that removes a level of role-play and imagination that I'd rather see intact. That goes double for characters who for whatever reason don't bother to (or can't) elaborately act out their roles and establish a unique character with distinguishing traits and features. There are reasons for the character separation rule, beyond just multiplaying and eq-swapping, and those reasons are good, IMHO.

The problem is that bad newbie equipment, and a newbie's relative inability to get equipment even if they're skilled (you can farm gold without levelling?!), is a great incentive not to separate characters. I'd rather see this incentive removed, and make it possible for new characters who don't join a following (too) early or have big OOC buddies, to get to level ten without paying a permanent penalty for their principles.

That, to me, is the core issue here. Removing randomness from levels all the way to 30 is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. If that's the only option on the table, I'd rather have the status quo.

[Rykken]

Heh, look at the who list. I'm not saying it's the only contributor, but it's one of them. When you first made your first character Rykken, things were much different. The vast majority of players weren't wearing that kind of gear, mostly because the kind of eq that many newbies wear these days doesn't exist. I see lots of newbies with connections wearing potents... there are lots of combos, +5s, and more. When we first started, I remember there being 20 other people just as bad as I was. We could afford such a steep curve for learning to make a character because we had the bodies to compensate...

We don't these days. I just find it odd that you're asking for evidence that making a NEW PLAYER's experience will encourage a NEW PLAYER to stay. Try and look at this from someone's viewpoint these days, and try and remember that this is NOT the TFC of 1995.

What does the first paragraph have to do with anything?

What I see is a request by re-rollers, who wish to have "overpowered" stats, have an easier time getting those said stats. You can still get ridiculous stats if you take care of it. No need for a revamp of the first 10 levels.

[wish]

Ah, the joy of causing an intense discussion that more than likely will lead nowhere! Let me toss more fuel on the fire.

First of all, let me address Tynian's question about how to get from one place to another. His question is more of a philosophical one because it obviously applies to any major change to the game. People tend not to like change and so any major redesign faces the substantial risk of alienating the player base, even if the goal is to attract and retain new players. Who is more important to TFC? Solaron, or some newbie? (hiccup!) If TFC had a much larger player base, it would not be so much of a problem. Tynian could make changes, knowing that any players lost would probably be back-filled by new players. That option really does not exist any more.

So, even though I had a hand in proposing this idea, if the goal is to keep the TFC player base stable my recommendation would be to make no gameplay type changes at all. I really don't think that this change will attract or keep new players. We are probably way beyond that at this point.

What will attract and retain players? I believe increased interactivity is the answer. That means artificial intelligence. It means mobs that talk back or provide information. It means objects that can be manipulated and used for different purposes. It means rooms that change to offer different experiences to different players based on multiple factors.

What it does not mean is simply adding more hurdles or inscrutable puzzles for people to solve. After all, a crossword puzzle with bigger words is still just a big crossword puzzle.

I, for one, am ready to move on to Scrabble...

[Xerit]

What does the first paragraph have to do with anything?

What I see is a request by re-rollers, who wish to have "overpowered" stats, have an easier time getting those said stats. You can still get ridiculous stats if you take care of it. No need for a revamp of the first 10 levels.

Since I started this thread I'm going to take that as directed at me.

I do not currently have any plans to roll or reroll any characters, my motives here are for the most part pure. I also think its pretty unfair to call what appears to be geniune interest in helping the mud by people who have been playing it for more than 10 years a self serving attempt at helping their own characters.

For my part, I'm identifying what has, for me, been a turn off in the past in the hopes that future players, new and old, wont have to experience that same frustration. It is my oppinion, which is apparently shared by others, that the first 10 levels of this game, of which a true newbie would have little to no control over, have a disproportionately large effect on the end-game PK and non-pk (For example exploring) potential of a character. I believe having a system that seems predjudiced against new players is counter-productive to aquiring and maintaining an influx of new players into the game (something I would hope everyone here can agree is, or should be, a major focus of the design of any game).

The fact TFC is a PK mud, if you create a character with bad stats and level him up, and he gets poor gains he will be at best, severly handicapped, and at worst completely unviable in what I would argue is the major portion of this game.

@Tamar,
Was the character you had with terrible stats one you actively PK'd on? If yes did you find that character was more, or less successful in a PK enviroment than characters who had better stats? I wouldn't try to argue that a character with bad stats would be un-able to RP effectively, since in reality that has little to do with the character itself and more with the player.

[Solaron]

What does the first paragraph have to do with anything?

What I see is a request by re-rollers, who wish to have "overpowered" stats, have an easier time getting those said stats. You can still get ridiculous stats if you take care of it. No need for a revamp of the first 10 levels.

Huh, ok.

I'm one of the people who need no help in getting max stats, great gains, etc. That implies that I would have an advantage over newbies, and thus wouldn't want them to have an easier time. I don't think that argument really holds water.

The first paragraph is meant to show that depending when someone was most active/more active, their vision may be skewed. Look at you - how many level 10/10's who are totally new to the game get ordained? :p

Either way, we're not making any headway here. I believe what few true newbies we may have log on need to not feel instantly at a loss. They're precious few as it is. We can take the hardline and say 'That's how it should be because we had to do it too' or we can say 'Here, let's find a way to help the newbies.'. Whatever. :hug:

[Tamar]

@Tamar,
Was the character you had with terrible stats one you actively PK'd on? If yes did you find that character was more, or less successful in a PK enviroment than characters who had better stats? I wouldn't try to argue that a character with bad stats would be un-able to RP effectively, since in reality that has little to do with the character itself and more with the player.
If you mean did I PK people, no. I'm pretty clueless about how to PK people, although I did try with one char (who did seem to have good stats). For me the inability to PK is probably a problem with the player ;)

Maybe I should practice!

If you mean was I actively attacked by PKers, yes. But it's very rare for that char to die to a PKer.

I think that TFC is a whole bunch of different games within a larger game. Experiences are going to vary based on a lot of things. Newbie stats are only one of them. I gotta say though that it's nice now when starting new chars that we have a chance to accept or reject the initial stats.

[Belsambar]

I'd like to point out that I doubt there was ANYONE who really learned the stat and skill system properly on their first character, even if they were TOLD STEP BY STEP what to do. Unless they got really lucky. It usually takes at least a few days, if not months, in which you play the first char, maybe create more, ask questions, and learn the game.

Then again, if you flatline it so nobody has to ask questions ever, and they just get the same levels, then they never learn anything about the gameplay, or worse, after level 10 when levels become normal, they have NO idea what to do to finish the character, and suddenly, they really DO suck at pvp and other interactions, simply because they never had the base starting point of no knowledge to work up to some knowledge to become the next great mind of the game.

Point being, if you have something to learn at sub 10, and you learn it around sub 10, and your stats sucked getting TO 10, well, there's another 20 levels of prime classes to fix those stats ((and I've seen some people go from horrible to awesome by the time they finished levelling, which wouldn't have ahppened if they ditched the char)) and you actually LEARNED how to fix it for the next char.

Otherwise, all of a sudden, you hit level 10, things start to suck, and now you start over, thinking it's a bad character. And then hit 10. And things suck. And start over. Maybe you ask questions and learn how to correct this. Maybe you don't. But if you never have a reason to, you possibly never will ((similar to how people when powerlevelled to 40 and never forced to explore know maybe 3 hometowns, 5 xp zones, and can't find their way from Hovelton to Cannible Isle WITH a map without explicit directions and can't figure out how to explore, because they never learned how because it was 'too dangerous' when they were small)) and if you never will, then you are at a distinct disadvantage, and will probly quit before you get too far.

Part of levelling to 10 is learning the game. How stats fluctuate and how other stats affect gains is part of learning the game. If you don't want to learn, go play something mindless and easy. I suggest solitaire. Or any graphical game that is tooled for those with a sub-normal intelligence.

[Solaron]

Part of levelling to 10 is learning the game. How stats fluctuate and how other stats affect gains is part of learning the game. If you don't want to learn, go play something mindless and easy. I suggest solitaire. Or any graphical game that is tooled for those with a sub-normal intelligence.

Just pointing out that this isn't an attitude conducive to finding and retaining new players.

[Xerit]

Then again, if you flatline it so nobody has to ask questions ever, and they just get the same levels, then they never learn anything about the gameplay, or worse, after level 10 when levels become normal, they have NO idea what to do to finish the character, and suddenly, they really DO suck at pvp and other interactions, simply because they never had the base starting point of no knowledge to work up to some knowledge to become the next great mind of the game.



The difference is they had 10 levels of (hopefully) interacting with other players and asking questions, learning, reading help files, to prepare them to properly set up their character. The current system is much more sink or swim, we just drop the newbies off on the deep end of the pool and HOPE they figure it out or at least just muddle through and then when they come out the other side we HOPE that telling them their stats suck and are probably beyond fixing isn't a big enough turn off to get them to quit.

As to the part about "suddenly your levels start sucking and you start over thinking you've done something wrong" this can be fixed pretty simply by having a help file on the subject of leveling eq and its importance. Add in a pop-up upon leveling out of the newbie zone or something advising people to read the help file and you've done pretty much everything you can from a game standpoint to make sure new players have the opportunity to learn.

I've been pretty active at one time or another in all facets of PK (Group killing, solo, brawls, theft, running ect ect) and from my perspective stats (both gear and character specific) are the most important determining factors when it comes to success or failure in that department. Having an extra 100 hp or so on someone is a ridiculously big advantage when most people are lucking to see something approaching 600. This difference is made worse if some of the stats you have messed up also include base stats like STR and Dex. Then you have to sacrifice PK stats like SVS and DR/HR to pad out your base stats. So now in addition to having bad health your hard cap for the number of PK stats you can reasonbly get on your gear is lowered since you had to replace some of them with base stats.

@Tamar - thats pretty much my point though when it comes to stats. it doesn't really affect you unless you're playing the parts of the game where it matters (read as PK). If you're playing a character who just runs away and spends most of his time talking with friends and RPing your stats are irrelevant so of course you don't see a problem when people who play this game primarily for its stat driven aspects complain about the way those stats are generated and affected by things beyond their reasonable control. (This is not meant to be confrontational, I honestly can't think of a nicer way to put it. Appologies if it comes off in an unintended way.)

[Ylang]

Can I add that my comments are just as much about experienced players, on whom we largely rely for our player base, than about real newbies. They *have* learned the ropes, don't need stats and eq explained to them, and do the first 10 or more levels pretty mechanically. Maybe the 'how did you find TFC' thread contradicts me here, but I'm not assuming real newbies have the OOC-buddies advantage I mentioned. Experienced players have an incentive to break character separation, or join a following as soon as the FLI in question permits, just to minimise the number of "wasted" levels. That's an issue that seems worth addressing, whether it helps or attracts real newbies, or not.

[Tamar]

@Tamar - thats pretty much my point though when it comes to stats. it doesn't really affect you unless you're playing the parts of the game where it matters (read as PK). If you're playing a character who just runs away and spends most of his time talking with friends and RPing your stats are irrelevant so of course you don't see a problem when people who play this game primarily for its stat driven aspects complain about the way those stats are generated and affected by things beyond their reasonable control.

Actually they do affect you even if you are not a PKer. Some of my chars can't kill a perfect match mob without being fully spelled up and rested, and even then they get pretty darn beat up. Rinse, repeat, after every mob. And I don't really RP much. I suck at that too!

But....

I'm confused about what the biggest issue is here in this thread. Is it that we think newbies leave the game because it's too hard, that we think people leave because they're disgruntled that they can't perfectly control all aspects of their stats to become uber PKers, or something else?

I think we're actually asking the wrong people, since obviously we've all soldiered on despite how things were for us whenever we started our various chars. Maybe we should ask people who no longer play anymore why they left?

[Ylang]

Another comment that might be of some use. Subjective, but here it is:

I would start more new characters if the first ten levels weren't as much of a gamble. That sense of gambling is entirely gone by level 15, and then the hard work starts. It's the gambling in the first few weeks, not the hard work after that, which discourages me from building new and different characters.

For that matter, it also discourages me from recommending the game to RL friends who aren't easily convinced that text mudding rocks. (Which means, all my RL friends, without exception, and why I consider the advertising leaflet a major writing challenge.)

[Xerit]

Actually they do affect you even if you are not a PKer. Some of my chars can't kill a perfect match mob without being fully spelled up and rested, and even then they get pretty darn beat up. Rinse, repeat, after every mob. And I don't really RP much. I suck at that too!

But....

I'm confused about what the biggest issue is here in this thread. Is it that we think newbies leave the game because it's too hard, that we think people leave because they're disgruntled that they can't perfectly control all aspects of their stats to become uber PKers, or something else?

I think we're actually asking the wrong people, since obviously we've all soldiered on despite how things were for us whenever we started our various chars. Maybe we should ask people who no longer play anymore why they left?

I was going to try to make that point earlier about it affecting things like exploring and leveling but I expected it to meet with even more resistance than my statement it affects PK.

As to the second paragraph, I would think all newbies should be welcome, be they power gamers, heavy rpers or otherwise. I also think frustration with things beyond your control is something common to most people. The early levels of any characters life, to me, seem to be pretty much designed to create that feeling of frustration in anyone.

This idea isn't for anyone specifically, nor any one group. Its to fix what I believe is a problem with the game. I'm not targeting the hardcore re-rollers, old players, or new players specifically. Newbies just happen to be the easiest ones to use as examples and the ones whom give the idea the most justification. However as much as I like any idea which may help our chances at retaining newbies I also like any idea which I believe will make the game more fun for the player base we currently have.

I firmly believe this idea satisfies both.

[Ylang]

I mentioned three ways to potentially address the issue, both in this thread, in another thread, and in a conversation with god+ in-game:
* Simply make level 1-10 stats/eq not matter. Quick and dirty. The more I think of this, the less I like it. As someone said to me offline, why not just start characters at level 10?
* Upgrading limited eq, especially in newbie areas, so that they are once again a useful way to cobble together a basic set that avoids permanent penalties for not having OOC help.
* Algenara auctions and a newbie fund (see thread "Algenara auctions"). Complicated, but multi-purpose, interactive and fun.

Here's a fourth solution, that probably strikes a good balance:

Change how the pit works, so it is easier for characters of level 1 to 10 to equip well enough to level well. Here's how, in particular:

1. Items in the pit (particularly armor and eq) persist through reboots, so the pit is always well stocked and the viability of a new character isn't dependent on time since last reboot.
2. Items in the pit purge after a set period (say, seven RL days). Perhaps make the purge period dependent on game-perceived value of eq (see detailed note on item value below).
3. The pit should be accessible only to newbies. Anyone can put stuff in, but only newbies can get stuff out. In fact, I can't see why the contents should even be visible to anyone other than newbies and immortals (see also optional idea below).
4. All eq and weapons with sufficient game-perceived value (see note), which Mish or shoppies can't sell, go into the pit, along with anything players place in the pit.
5. All stuff that gets pitted is automatically identified and marked. (Perhaps Algenara can be scripted to do periodic ID duty, for an RP solution to this.)

Some optional points that refine this idea or solve potential problems:
6. Flag all pitted eq. If a newbie drops such gear, or gives it to someone else, it goes straight back to the pit. This will significantly reduce the potential that the pit will be used/abused by level 11+ characters. After all, they should be able to requip off randoming, Mish, friends or followings, by then. (I'd like to make an exception for pit gear a newbie manages to sell or auction, but that strikes me as unnecessary complication and while it may add value to both newbie learning and the economy, it would also open a new loophole for abuse.)
7. Reward players (minimally) for pitting eq that meets game-perceived value standards (see note). Nothing more than a nominal amount, say 50 or 100 gold, considering a shoppie won't buy it. Makes it worth stashing and pitting, rather than dumping on the spot.
8. Make valueless eq (Camp Tolanrael gear, non-magical stuff that doesn't have redeeming features such as high ac, weapons of avg 5 or less, food, treasure, furniture, or junk) purge immediately or quickly, to reduce clutter.
9. Use sacced items as a potential source for pit eq. If it meets game-perceived value standards (note), it goes to the pit, instead of poof. (This may cause complications I haven't thought of...)

Note:
Presumably, a way of evaluating "game-perceived value" of eq exists already, either in shoppie pricing routines or a Mish valuation function. The most simple way of valuing pit eq for purposes of purging or rewarding donors, would just be to compare magic flags. A better way would be that for pit purposes, armor and weapons should have more value than magic use items and consumables, basic or level stats should have higher value than other stats (dmg, da, hr or svs), +3 in total stat modification should (obviously) exceed +2 in value and persist longer before purging, and combo items or items with some other redeeming feature, such as high non-metal ac, should get a value bonus. A further refinement to pit item value might add a penalty for stat modifiers (or wearflags) of which there is lots more in the pit, so if nobody is smart enough to want +luc eq for example, or there are dozens of pairs of gloves in the pit but no sleeves, +luc stuff and gloves purge faster, and sleeves purge slower, so you don't end up with a pit full of stuff nobody apparently wants. Ideally, you'd have a dynamic valuation system, based on how well the pit is stocked at any given time.

[morgaine]

by the time you have 100 extra hp, you arn't a newbie anymore. Plus many of the power pkers can attriobute their success to a strong cache of heal potions, which anyone can find....

-Morgaine

[wish]

I agree with most of Ylang's suggestions regarding the pit. I do not agree with point #3, which restricts pit usage to newbies only. As we have discussed in other threads, the pit is a public function and as such should be available to the public. Here is the relevant discussion on that, and I believe Tynian weighed in:

http://forums.finalchallenge.net/showthread.php?t=170&page=2

[Tamar]

So I'm seeing two problems being talked about here:

1. Stats are not completely within a person's control.
2. It's hard to get good eq as a low level without breaking character separation or having RL friends.

I agree that #2 is a problem, and will see what I can do to address that.

[Tynian]

Presumably, a way of evaluating "game-perceived value" of eq exists already, either in shoppie pricing routines or a Mish valuation function.

This made me smile.

If we had a good method of determining equipment "value," Mish would quit auctioning crap that has little hope of selling! Determining actual demand, or value, or pricing is a bit tricky, though something I've wanted to put more effort into.

[Tynian]

If TFC had a much larger player base, it would not be so much of a problem. Tynian could make changes, knowing that any players lost would probably be back-filled by new players. That option really does not exist any more.


I really don't think that this change will attract or keep new players. We are probably way beyond that at this point.

I agree with your assessment. Well, except for the Tynian making changes part. I've stepped back! ::cool::

I especially agree that the major change you proposed is unlikely to attract or keep new players. It is my considered opinion that we lose out more on the "people" side of the game, and less on game mechanics.

As far as stats and leveling -- a true newbie probably isn't going to know what a good level is vs. bad. They'll have little idea of what the stats do. They're more likely to get frustrated and lost when trying to figure out how MUDs work (for those that are new to MUDing), or the TFC particulars (for those that have mudded before).

If we really viewed new players as a precious resource, we'd treat them as such. That means answering any questions they have immediately, showing them around, giving them equipment, providing spells, giving them tips and helping them along. A little compassion wouldn't hurt, either. In short, we'd get them acclimated to the game. Befriend them. Give them a reason to keep coming back. Almost all of us, mortal and Immortal alike, could do a better job with the people side of the game, especially towards those we don't already know.

The principle advantage we have over the MMORPG may be our size. We're small enough that you can get to know the characters, and the players behind them. You can still meet new people, while building friendships and alliances with the old hands.

Game mechanics play a role, and I agree, more work can and should be done in that area. But the people make much more of a difference. As Solaron pointed out, it's not 1995. And there isn't a magic coding elixer that will make TFC a perfect newbie destination. We are not going to dazzle people with game mechanics. It comes down to us players. ::up::

[Silonch]

I have to agree with Tynian.

It is up to the players to recruit and retain new players.

And I have to agree our current size is an advantage. Hopefully we can grow without losing our small town feel.

[Ylang]

This made me smile.

I aim to amuse. :-)