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Whistler

What alignments mean

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Quote Originally Posted by Whistler View Post

Forgive me, but I really need to rant about this, and this is related Oliver, so please bear with me.

I've been playing RPG's since their first inception in the mid 70s. Since then, I have played essentially every single tabletop RPG, and far more of the electronic versions than most people. Virtually all of those games that use alignment systems have used a variant of the original Tactical Studies Rules written by
Gary Gygax.

The alignment system is designed to help define the character in terms of belief systems.

Alignment:
Nobody thinks of themselves as the bad guy, so Gygax came up with idea of good vs. evil as a function of whom the character is out to benefit. Those who were out for the general good of all (i.e. the masses) fit into the idea of "Good," and those who were selfish and out for themselves alone were "Evil." Between these two extremes lie those of neutral alignment. A neutral aligned character sometimes looks to their own benefit and sometimes looks to the benefit of others. A neutral aligned character looks to their Ethos for their motivation.

Ethos
The idea of Ethos works similarly. A Lawful person always follows the rules of engagement, and believes that the rules are there to be followed. A chaotic person is the ultimate rebel-- they believe the rules are there to be broken. a person of neutral ethos sometimes follows the rules and sometimes doesn't. Those of neutral Ethos look to their alignment for their moral compass.

The combination of the two, Alignment and Ethos, results in 9 distinct ethical alignments, each characterized by distinguishing features:

LG-believes that an ordered society benefits the general good, so they always play by the rules.

NG-may or may not follow the rules, what's important is that the people benefit.

CG-believes the rules are not good for the people, and breaks them to benefit others. (think Robin Hood)

LE-Believes in using the rules to their own benefit-(think politicians and big business, rules lawyers and demons)

NE-chooses for themselves which rules to follow, all that matters is that the self ends up ahead. (think mafia)

CE-fights against the rules (or breaks them) to benefit self exclusively. (think cult leader)

CN-Believes that rules are bad. It does not matter who benefits, as long as the rules are broken.

LN-Believes that order is all important, far more important than personal or freedom or justice.

NN-true balance: a little bit of everything. This is the most difficult of any alignment to play.

Good characters don't Kill anybody if they can avoid it.
Evil Characters look for people to kill-they look to their ethos to justify it.
Chaotic characters always break a deal.
Lawful characters always play by the rules.


So you may be wondering what sparks this rant.
Well, yesterday I was attacked not once, but 3 times by someone who said he was just following his alignment--Chaotic good. He claimed that everyone in his following had been instructed to kill anyone that isn't chaotic. This is NOT appropriate to the CG ethical alignment. Robin Hood only killed in self defense-he didn't kill the rich, he robbed from them.

It's gotten me to thinking that not just his following, but many of the followings don't conform to these well established standards of ethical alignment. Largely, the ethical alignment of followings seem to have devolved to the point of being no more than gang colors. But then again, perhaps TFC uses a different system than every other game that uses ethical alignment-but if this is the case, don't call it that.

I would challenge each of the FLI's to strongly consider their followings, and either insist that their followers start conforming to the established standards for their supposed alignment, or change the followings alignment.

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Addendum--further notes on Ethos

Because lawful characters follow the rules, they are predictable. If you have been attacked once by a lawful character, one should be wholly expectant that they will do so again.

Those of neutral Ethos DO follow rules, but they are their own rules, and are used exclusively in the pursuit of their alignment (GNE). These characters can be predictable once you figure out what rules they follow. It would be appropriate for a character of the Neutral ethos to repeatedly attack annother character EXCLUSIVELY in the pursuit of their alignment (GNE).

Chaotic characters do not follow any rules other than chaos. This makes them highly unpredictable. If you are attacked once by a chaotic character and escape, it is HIGHLY unlikely that they will pursue you for a second attack. Being true to their chaotic nature, they will pursue a different target instead. Chaotic characters will NEVER repeatedly attack the same character, because such behaviour is predictable and therefore diametrically opposed to their ethos.

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Updated March 1st, 2010 at 11:06 AM by Whistler (addendum)

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Comments

  1. Whistler's Avatar
    Deals and ethos
    A lawful character will ALWAYS stick to the letter of the deal.
    a neutral character MAY stick to a deal IF it conforms to their alignment
    A Chaotic character is likely to either break a deal or find some loophole to get out of their end of it, but may follow through just to keep you guessing.

    (i'm hoping that DarkClaw doesn't read this until after i get my restrings for my quest. Still, knowing that she's Chaotic, although i may be disappointed should she decide not to fulfill her end of the bargain, I would fully understand and find it in character for her ethos. After all, i'm not even her follower)

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  2. Treehugger's Avatar
    Just to play devil's advocate here though, that's more of a guideline, but how people act within those followings is up to interpretation. As I recall, Solanthas' following (WarDancers, I'm pretty sure?) was at war with another blue following at one point.

    In my experience, evils are, generally, more self-centered. Not to say that everyone who plays an evil character only cares about themselves, but often it seems that even in cases of evils helping evils, it's to ultimately improve one's own situation - helping another evil eq so you have someone else to pk/exp with, for instance. The same way, goods are, often, concerned with the overall well-being of other goods and sometimes neutrals - that's the way they see the greater good. But couldn't the greater good also be seen as the greater good of the following itself?

    I mean, being Chaotic good, they could just have a different way of seeing the means to achieve the end of the greater good from the other blue followings - sort of like a "you need to crack a few eggs to make an omelette" sort of mentality.

    Frankly, I don't care one way or another - it's Cytoxan's following to do with as he pleases - I won't try tell him how to run a following. From an RP stand point, yeah, Harbingers probably could have justified themselves and their change of policies a little more effectively, and yeah it does suck for the people who had to find out the hard way, but OOC I don't particularly have a problem with what they've done.
  3. Whistler's Avatar
    This is exactly my problem. if ethos and alignment are not indicators of a characters belief system, whether playor or FLI--if they are nothing but that gang's code letters, then alignment shouldn't be a part of the game.

    Hitler thought he was a good guy, that doesn't mean he was. Many people call themselves christians, that doesn't mean they are.

    If the Ethos and alignment are not used as a defining feature of characters, then the game should drop them completely.

    AND i'm not just talking about Cytoxins following. from what i've seen, most of the FLI's need to reexamine their followings direction.
  4. Isolas's Avatar
    Clearly you think you're talking to a game that cares about the health of itself. Nearly all mortals and immortals alike quit that several years ago.

    I sympathize as someone who sees evil being killed off by people wearing a blue aura and still being evil.
  5. Tynian's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Isolas
    Clearly you think you're talking to a game that cares about the health of itself. Nearly all mortals and immortals alike quit that several years ago.

    I sympathize as someone who sees evil being killed off by people wearing a blue aura and still being evil.
    I think we can trace the decline in evil in part from the time you had the dominant evil following and then sorta quit playing for a while. Molo has been functionally missing. I have a feeling evil will make a comeback. Perhaps if the right following comes along...?

    Aside from that, Cytoxan's following is the 3rd most active good following out of 3. I don't think he's the reason you have few followers.

    C'mon, now, at least implicate the neutral alignment and DarkClaw's following (the most active group) to your downfall and the decline of evil. Put some effort into playing an effective victim!
  6. Isolas's Avatar
    Okay: Neutrals in today's game seem (outwardly, anyway) to stand for nothing. (I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.) Followings who take stands to defend and play their alignment are in great decline - and by great decline, I mean slowly over the past 12 years I've been playing. There is a chance I'm old, and 12 years seems like the blink of an eye.

    The victim game I'm playing is based largely on Cytoxan having cake and eating it too. Blue is in, so he attracts that demographic immediately while proactively carrying the torches we evils traditionally bear.
  7. Whistler's Avatar
    Neutral doesn't mean nihilist. (kudo's for quote btw.)
    UA's fall closer to that direction.

    Neutrals do stand for something,
    true neutral stand for balance
    CN stands for chaos.
    LN stands for law.
    NE stands for evil.
    NG stads for good.

    Personally, imo, Isolas and his following is doing a wonderful job of conforming to NE, but other dieties are not doing so well, and Cytoxin isn't the only one.
    (seems to me that a lot of people are pointing at him)
    If Cytoxin's following is going to be focused on chaos, then their alignment should be changed to CN~if this leads to a schism, then so be it. Let one of his immortal followers take up the gauntlet.
    DarkClaw's following seems to be moving much closer to the ideal of CG than their avowed CN, and in spite of his absence, what i've seen of Molo's following seems to conform to the 'evil' alignment, but i'm not so sure about the lawful end of it.

    i've had little enough interaction with the other FLI's to form an oppinion.

    If the crazy lady comes back though, she might be able to pull off true neutral. it takes somebody a little crazy to help someone then turn around and hurt them just to keep the balance.

    oh, and the dropoff in followers for the Nashites- i don't think it has so much to do with the dark emperor's leadership skills, i think it's simply that we have fewer pkers these days, because so many have gone off for the graphics (read gore) in the mmorpgs.

    I also agree that the current trend will change eventually. The pendulum seems to swing one way pretty far before it swings back the other way.

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  8. Cytoxan's Avatar
    I see it is time I wayed in on this subject. My actions have nothing to do with evil and everything to do with my seeing the Realm as too predictable and or Lawful for my liking. I therefore decided that Free will should abound and that Chaos was a way to make this happened. I did try other avenues like an alignment change and got a resounding 'NO' for my troubles. I also agree that the alignments of the realm are way scewed from what people seem to think they should be. This being said, my main concern is for the game being a pk mud. When 2 guys can get 20 guys to sit in safe there is a problem there. My views of the realm are such that everyone is worried that they are going to lose something by taking a chance. The Realm currently today is too autoatomical. When the Harbingers decided to make KotE an enemy the backlash was very vocal. What people failed to see too me is that a Neutral following can have a good enemy. They are neutral. By us being an enemy we made their following more balanced in the scheme of things. We actually made KotE more Neutral. And if you think good does not kill you just have to look at the Crusades to know that is not true either. More people were killed in the name of good than you can count. My current view is that Everything is way too rigid, set, and orderly. Everyone seems to think that things should be this way. That is actually a very anti Chaotic thing. So in order to put a little Chaos into things I have decided that since evil is not filling the void that is Chaos that it is my duty to spread a little Chaos on the Realm. Thus the Chaos War was born for me. You can call us evil in a blue aura if you like but people need to realize that pking is part of the mud. The chance to lose gear makes the playing more exciting. Noone knows the outcome and even the person with the best gear can be defeated. Use your brains and come up with that strategy. I will applaud you for a job well done. Chaos is the new watch word. Sit in safe if you want or take a chance and shrug off the old self and reinvent yourselves. Either way I will support your right to do what you want. Free Will Rules and Chaos abounds.

    Cytoxan, Lord of the Harbingers.

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