Floating Damage Needs to be Removed

[orpik]

I believe it has a lot of effects which were unintended and did not accomplish what was probably hoped to be accomplished.

I am going to just talk about when my character is on for simplicity, but the same things occur when any character is on with large amounts of damage.

1) Players vs. Mobs
I am always limited by the dmg cap against mobs. However, when I am online everyone else who does not have a lot of damage on(some amount over the cap) will get the floating dmg and then swing over the dmg cap on mobs.

So what this means is people with weak sets swings evis-anni on mobs while I am online, even though I can only swing mutilate with a rare evis on mobs even with an average 12 weapon. Thus people ask me not to log off while they do mobmasters etc.. though I do not get to benefit from my own dmg when I do mobmasters.

This also gives it away to people anytime a big threat is online because their swing goes up dramatically. If floating dmg is to stay, which It should not, everyone else should still have the dmg caps versus mobs. Why should others get an advantage over me against mobs just because I have a better set. (note i did not say why should they have a more equal shot at mobs, they swing much harder than i do on mobs while I am online). If anyone should swing hard on mobs, it should be the person who was able to put together the set- not everyone but that person.

2) Player vs Pacifist or Reprisalist
So if I hit a pacifist, they are protected by the dmg cap. This means I will swing mutilates on them, but here is the catch. Because of floating dmg, they will swing annihilate on me, even if they are wearing half of the damage I am. While I have never liked the damage cap, if someone is going to benefit from it, they should not also be able to benefit from someone's dmg worn beyond the cap, since that person cannot benefit from that dmg against them.

3)Player vs DA DMG wearer
As I have said before, the floating dmg does not help people with lots of dmg worn as much as those with less. Take for example avarice who wears more dmg than hiro or arella but swings less hard against me than they do because he does not get as much of the benefit from floating dmg as they do. What this means is people that wear 20dmg and 30 da will swing harder on mobs and pcs while I am online than will people who wear 40 dmg (and they still benefit from the DA). In other words, a person with a better set say 60 affects of 30dmg, 30da will benefit from the floating dmg more than a person with 40dmg and will swing harder than that person. This makes no sense to me. If floating dmg is really just to help people with weaker sets, it needs to count DA just like dmg in determining whether the person should recieve the floating dmg. Though the best solution is getting rid of floating dmg entirely.

Intended effects
I can only speculate as to what these were, and please do help me understand if I am missing something. Here are my hunches.

I think at least one of the ideas behind the floating dmg was to try to get people to leave safe and fight characters like myself and Ink (and have a chance to win that fight) rather than guild sit.

Obviously it has not helped this at all. People still guildsit. Even when I was naked people feared me not because of the set of eq I had, but because I have killed them in the past or their god tells them not to mess with me or because their friends tell them to watch out for me. In any event, I can attest that people who did not fight me before floating dmg came in are no more willing to fight me with it than they were before.

I expect it was intended to bring some parity, but I do not think it has accomplished that either. I recently CMD logged a battle of Ink vs. Me in a spar. In that spar ink was swinging muti to evis through sanc on me while I swung maul through sanc on him. Ink lost about 100 hps during the battle in which he killed me. For those of you not familiar with our sets, I wear a lot more damage and at least as much but probably 5 to 10 hitroll more than he does. And then there were my spars with hiro. Out of respect for Hiro I won't say how much dmg he wears but, its roughly one half the amount I wear. Hiro consistently beat me in spars, swinging 100 to 110 on me. Now if I were ever to attack him out of a spar, I would swing half as hard while he would continue to swing that amount due to his pacifist status. There is no parity here, all else being equal the person with 2x the dmg worn will lose against a pacifist wearing half the dmg by a large margin.

While I understand tynian has an interest in not having any characters dominate the mud to the exclusion of other characters, this is not a good solution. first of all, it is very annoying to those of us who were able to build great sets by pking those with better sets only to now have people with worse sets swing harder than us. Furthermore, it is coded. There is no way for me to get around it, ie no incentive to build my set and less incentive to play. Yes I could retire, or give away my set so that others would not swing 100-110 on me, but then again I would not swing hard on them either. If the point is all sets should give equal results, there should be no such thing as dmg equipment (nor TFC as it would be pointless to play for the vast majority of us)

though I thought I would never say this... I would rather have a dmg cap, even against sociopaths than have floating dmg. Why? because then at least people would perform better with better sets even if there was a maximum to this, rather than the reverse. At least with an upper dmg cap, I could benefit from that amount of dmg and others would have to build the set in order to perform as well. In other words I would rather that we could only swing mass than to let everyone swing annihilate just because one character online does. The system as it is totally discourages one of the main things which drives this game, the goal of developing a great set. At least with an upper dmg cap, I could throw on 30 da and wear the max dmg rather than having the people who do not even wear half the dmg I do, but wear lots of DA swing harder than I do (and benefit from all of that DA when I swing on them).

As it is now, all you need to do to have an advantage over someone who wears 50 dmg is wear 40 dmg and stay a pacifist. Then you will swing harder on them than they will on you. the thing is pacifist coding did not increase play just like floating dmg has not. People will fear the inks and Orpiks of the realm even if our dmg against them is capped etc... Floating dmg has done nothing to help this, but has made it very discouraging for people who built nice sets only to have everyone else swing harder on them as a result.

[ink]

Sounds like maybe you should rethink your strategy.

[orpik]

Clearly Da is much more powerful now, but really is that what we want? Do we want everyone to start wearing 30 DA and then wearing dmg?

People complain about eq not circulating now. How about when it takes 50 rounds to pk anyone? I don't think encouraging people to change sets from dmg to DA will help bring back the mud.

Obviously you were in the position to do so since you lost your dmg set, but it is a lot different for someone who built a great offensive set to have to change it to a defensive set bc the code gives everyone else the same offense.

What would be accomplished by getting everyone to wear 30 da rather than straight dmg? the ability to dominate is still there and there is even less incentive to fight such a person since it would take so long to kill them (and almost no one will sit for 5 minutes in a losing battle rather than just flee recall)

Or would you advocate I give my set to someone like avarice and then create small characters and run around swinging annihilate on others just because avarice is online. I just do not see what the advantage to the game is of having such a system.

[Avarice]

I'm sure you'll all be surprised by this but I have to agree with Orpik about floating dmg being removed altogether. While as usual Ink finds a way to sound like an idiot I think even he would have to agree that it makes little to no sense to work hard building a set when you can actually swing harder and more often by wearing garbage.

As Orpik said, the current float system favors and will eventually force everyone to wear damage absorption. Then have some semi-active person sit around and give everyone float by wearing a buncha useless dmg and may the best da win. Seems stupid to me.

If the reasons for this dmg float junk were as Orp said to prevent people from guildsitting then I think we can pretty much agree that just hasn't happened. If people have been out and doing stuff its probably not when Orpik or Ink were on. Trying to code the game around a player's reputation is definitely not the way to go, imho. SCary pk'ers will always exist, regardless of the method they use to kill people. No amount of rules, coding, etc will ever change that.

As far as the portion of floating dmg vs mobs goes, I can't say i mind doing a little more dmg vs mobs as a result of the float, but I do think its illogical and probably wasn't intended as it stands now. I mean why let anyone swing over cap? Isn't the point of a cap to prevent people from swinging harder than a certain level of damage? For that matter, why should mobs that can have tons more hitpoints, dmg, etc even get a cap? Its not like theres a whole ton of ppl xp'ing on chars with 50dmg. And if they wanted to risk xp'ing with that kinda set I don't see why they shouldn't swing their real dmg.

I never much understood why the cap was put in since TFC seemed to work fine back in the 2.x days but still, it seems to me if you want to restrict dmg done to a person then they shouldn't also get the floating dmg bonus as well.

Also, gimme protection from neutral. If neutrals can protect from me let me protect from them. OR give me a bonus vs neutrals so this inbalance is a wash. Thanks!

[Jashon]

<DISCLAIMER> I most likely do not understand floating damage as well as any of the persons that have previously posted--and I admit it. But it most certaintly doesn't mean I'm not opinionated. Forgive my ignorance and curse me--whatever you wish...I probly don't care what you think </DISCLAIMER>




Let me try to illustrate my feelings on the subject:

When the PK range was changed so that hitting effective 20 was not a death sentance (back in the day 50s could hit eff 20s) people complained.

When we changed to 3.x-- people complained.

When the damage cap was implemented-- people complained.

And now with floating damage-- people complain.

While all the whining annoys me greatly (there is a big difference between discussing and complaining (some people discuss well with a differing view--but others, who mostly are quite outspoken, whine.) and I shall refrain from naming names, but one of them does happen to be one of my favorite persons in the world) and I actually enjoy seeing things implemented into the game that change the strategy-- and the efficacy of certain eq, I must agree with Orpik on one point. It does not make sense to me that a person with floating damage can hit over damage cap while another is limited to the damage cap--at least the way that it is now implemented and the way that I now understand it. (While I cannot backup what Orpik states with firsthand knowledge, I believe him. He generally knows what he is talking about and does test the stuff out --while some of his tests are not controlled, that point is not my argument)

I do believe there should be some instances, in which, a person may get bonuses to hit above the damage cap--but not just the floating damage as is presently implemented. (When I am in the mood I will post the idea)

In short, other than the fact that some characters in certain circumstances may hit above the damage cap I have no complaint with floating damage. I think is an effective, thought perhaps imperfect way, of "toning down" eq, by basically making most of it better (in certain circumstances).

[Tynian]

I never much understood why the cap was put in since TFC seemed to work fine back in the 2.x days

It worked because you couldn't build huge damage sets in 2.x.

In fact, almost every goofy thing I've since that point in regards to damage is because of the vast increase in damage, and trying to avoid pissing off those that have tons of it.

I don't particularly like the selective damage cap. I don't particularly like DA. I don't particularly like floating damage. But I like all those better than people creating essentially unbeatable characters. Even the best equipped character should have to rely on thought and skill, not just on being able to swing for tons of damage.

So if floating damage makes someone like Orpik pay more attention to what he's doing, then great! I believe that the better players will always end up better equipped, by the virtue that even when they are less equipped, they'll manage to get kills and find ways to become the best.

Here's what really needs to happen:

• Quit worrying about the blow-back from making correct design decisions, and instead address the real problems.
• Redesign stats so that there is incentive to wear something other than +damage.
• Cap all stats, so that the game can be designed around finite constraints, and not around how much one could possibly pile on.
• Adjust mobs around the new stats constraints.

To put 'floating damage' into perspective, there are two active characters out in the world that have the potential of really ramping damage up. Orpik is one of those two. There's another 4 who can affect floating damage somewhat.

Perhaps it's time to look at how to succeed in today's world vs. complaining that the old strategy doesn't work.

[Tay]

i like floating dam, for the fact that i wear 20+ odd dam, and swing as hard as the big dawgs, but they still seem to swing harder and more often but thats cool, i know i cant kill a 50, its a fact and i realize it.

[Schwartz]

If Tynian decided orange was the best color in the game, everyone would begin gathering every single orange item in the game. Some would get lost, stolen, horded, whatever...but people would focus on collecting orange, and generally tossing anything that wasn't orange.

One day Tynian decides green is the best color in the game.

But, you've got all this orange stuff, you say? ....so does everyone else. Find comfort in knowing that everyone was collecting orange, just as you were, and now they're starting over, too.

For today, green remains the best color in the game, irrespective of how much you really liked your orange collection.

[Solaron]

I've been secretly hoarding blue for when he makes THAT the best.

[Nicademus]

Considering I still have not figured out exactly how floating damage works I dont think I am in a position to complain about it. However, I dont necessarily understand why there is a damage/da cap when fighting mobs. I get it with respect to players to improve balance, but what is the need to protect mobs?

My guess, and correct me if I am wrong, is that you just want to make some mobs unbeatable or extremely hard to take down? Cant we fix that my just making the mobs stronger that we want to be stronger?

Anyway this isnt a topic I feel strongly about, just thought I would chime in.

-Nic

and its yellow Sol- YELLOW

[Tynian]

My guess, and correct me if I am wrong, is that you just want to make some mobs unbeatable or extremely hard to take down? Cant we fix that my just making the mobs stronger that we want to be stronger?

We could go through and adjust all the mobs for inflation (and I've already done that to an extent), but it's not enough. It's not just a matter of keeping the big mobs challenging (and even now, they probably aren't challenging enough), but also to prevent leveling being a 15 minute cake walk by well-connected characters.

In short, the extreme variation in damage makes it difficult to size mobs appropriately for everyone.

[orpik]

Thanks for taking the time to read my thoughts and respond tynian. I hope you will consider removing floating damage.


I am not sure if you noticed but i was without internet for a few weeks and unable to play. I do not think that my absence fixed tfc and if as you pointed out floating dmg only really comes into play when 2 people are on. I do not think it will fix tfc. (sorry fix isnt the right word, but I'm not sure what is).

I recognize that coding takes time and effort. However, I do not see what this coding has accomplished, especially if it only really targets 2 players.

Obviously I am upset because I am one of those 2 players the code targets.

If you decide not to remove the code entirely, please tone it down some so that I at least have an even shot against characters of the same effective level with much inferior sets. I do not think making others stronger will actually induce them to leave safe, but if it does, so be it, just give me a chance to win the fights.

If you are concerned that others do not have a shot at beating those of us with lots of dmg, I encourage you to look at the role that spells play in pvp combat to help overcome the dominance of dmg instead of relying on floating dmg which just penalizes the best equipped characters.

I strongly encourage coding to allow for more strategy, however simply making others swing harder because I am online does not encourage strategy. Frankly I am not sure what it encourages as from my perspective it is only serves to discourage.

I realize I am of a minority of apparently 2, however, building sets like mine is what many on this game aim for... without it, what is the goal?

People need more reasons to play, not fewer. IF my set causes the code to penalize me, what do I have to aim for? Trying to decrease my set until I can win battles again? I am trying not to come of bitter about this, but it is hard not to.

Perhaps best stated, the question is- how would you hope I and the other character would respond to the code change? what would be our ideal reaction? Swap out 20 dmg to throw on 30 DA? Or just dismantle my set until I am not penalized to such a drastic degree?

[Avarice]

Orpik really hit the point I was trying to make in my previous post with his reply. Let me also say thanks for taking the time to read my posts on this. I'm trying to be constructive and having someone respond flipantly to an important topic by saying "change your strategy" doesn't do it for me.

I look at TFC as a 2-part effort. At first you are focused on levelling up your character. Once you've done that, you focus on building a set. As it stands now I'm not really sure I have incentive to build my set at all. All I want to know is that if I put time and effort into my set it will pay dividends for me and not ppl who don't play or put effort in at all.

I wholly agree with Tynian about making characters that are just unbeatable. However I disagree that ANYONE is unbeatable at the moment. In fact, I don't see how anyone even comes CLOSE to being unbeatable. Just because nobody has killed Orpik doesn't mean has he hasn't come close to dying. As for Ink, he died not so long ago. The fact of the matter is, everyone is vulnerable to being ganged up on, to being summoned, to being locked-in to a bad room and being killed. If someone is smart and fast they may not die for a long, long time. But when Ink died it wasn't because someone was taking advantage of floating dmg, it's because 2 smart characters engaged him in a more or less even fight and landed a timely dispel magic dropping his sanctuary.

I think Orpik also has been advocating the increased use of spells in pvp...as it stands now you have ppl wearing -20svs and making it worthless to even cast an offensive spell on them. Rather than letting people get a dmg bonus because Orpik is on, why not just adjust the way -svs work? I'll admit theres probably alot of thought that needs to go into a change in the current spell system but ultimately I think we can work a system out that will allow people who have massive dmg sets to be just one of many options available to the smart, savy pk'er.

For starters, how about ways to make simple rings that aren't just hr/dr.....lets see some massive hp/mana rings. ANd spells to put that hp/mana to good use! I think we need to adjust the way classes work in general, so that you have real mages, real clerics and real shamans...not just physical damage ppl who can heal, or cast rift or portal to you....

[Tynian]

If you are concerned that others do not have a shot at beating those of us with lots of dmg, I encourage you to look at the role that spells play in pvp combat to help overcome the dominance of dmg instead of relying on floating dmg which just penalizes the best equipped characters.

Spells are not the answer. You have spells. And a huge swing. Someone else has spells. How has the situation gotten better?

People need more reasons to play, not fewer. IF my set causes the code to penalize me, what do I have to aim for? Trying to decrease my set until I can win battles again? I am trying not to come of bitter about this, but it is hard not to.

I have outlined what the underlying problem is, and what needs to happen to ultimately fix that underlying problem, as opposed to applying these little band-aids. I do not know of a way of fixing the underlying problem without some people getting discouraged. I know you would prefer that I quit messing with damage. I also know you've worked hard to put together the set of equipment you have. I don't see a way to fix it that won't upset you. I doubt we even agree on the problem, but I don't see a way of fixing that, either.

I am frustrated because there are clearly some balance issues that really ought to be addressed, but addressing them will involve some pain, and will affect everyone in different ways. Obviously, those that are on the outer edge of this balance will be affected more adversely. I just don't see a way around it, aside from maintaining the status quo. Is that more in the best interests of the game and the player base as a whole? Or is it more in your best interest at the expense of (most) everyone else? I don't know.

[Tynian]

As it stands now I'm not really sure I have incentive to build my set at all.

I understand. I unfortunately can't offer you any reassurances, especially when it comes to having lots of +dmg.

I wholly agree with Tynian about making characters that are just unbeatable. However I disagree that ANYONE is unbeatable at the moment. In fact, I don't see how anyone even comes CLOSE to being unbeatable.

I agree that with a large, well equipped player base, you are probably correct.

I think we need to adjust the way classes work in general, so that you have real mages, real clerics and real shamans...not just physical damage ppl who can heal, or cast rift or portal to you....

Sounds good.

[Solaron]

I think we need to adjust the way classes work in general, so that you have real mages, real clerics and real shamans...not just physical damage ppl who can heal, or cast rift or portal to you....

I think we need to change multiclassing and add in master-classes. That would change a lot of the dependency on damage... but not as much of it as we'd like, probably. HP = Life. Damage is the fastest way to drop it.

We've also always combined our "ubergear" items as dam/hitroll. Perhaps that needs to be changed. More damage equals less accuracy so a much smaller chance to hit?

[Tynian]

I wanted to noodle over a couple of things before I responded.

1) Players vs. Mobs
I am always limited by the dmg cap against mobs. However, when I am online everyone else who does not have a lot of damage on(some amount over the cap) will get the floating dmg and then swing over the dmg cap on mobs.

I agree with you in principle. The damage cap should be respected.

2) Player vs Pacifist or Reprisalist
So if I hit a pacifist, they are protected by the dmg cap. This means I will swing mutilates on them, but here is the catch. Because of floating dmg, they will swing annihilate on me, even if they are wearing half of the damage I am.

Even without floating damage, it would be possible for a pacifist to hit you harder than you hit them, because of the damage cap, right?

[Tynian]

More damage equals less accuracy so a much smaller chance to hit?

We already do this to an extent, though I tend to agree that the effects should be greater, if for no other reason than to increase the value of +hr, and helps insure that slots will be used for something other than +dmg.

[Solaron]

Is it not possible to do something where damage works as normal up to 30, then above and beyond that is weaker? Every damage point above 30 is only 50% as effective, above 50 is only 25% as effective, etc? Having 70 damage would still be powerful, but floating damage could be removed. The majority of characters wouldn't be affected, and many would opt to fill the holes in with DA, SVS or HR instead of more damage.

[Tynian]

It is possible, though I would have to think through the ramifications. I remember considering something like that in the past -- I can't remember why I decided against it ....