Ability to leave following without Immortal intervention

[Tynian]

We used to give followers the ability to leave a following on their own, without their FLI or god+ involvement. The command was 'apostatize'.

How do you feel about characters being able to leave a following without the permission of their Immortal?

[hork]

with appropriate penalties, yes; unless their FLI is fairly inactive, they shouldn't be affected too much by penalties. It was the mortal's choice to worship an FLI and it shouldn't be the FLI's decision to let someone out or not. It's also bad for the game; if they don't want to log on that character anymore due to not getting along with the FLI or followers. Although, I can see how this can be abused, Ie. taking a fellow members corpse and apostatizing for instance. This can be a toughie. Maybe with God+ approval they can apostatize to make sure things like that wont happen, but I suppose it's the FLI's fault for letting a bad apple in?

[Ylang]

I voted with the majority -- yes with substantial penalties. After all, the traditional (quaint?) penalty for leaving a following, even with FLI consent, can be as severe as being killed and having your full corpse eaten.

A few caveats, though. If an immortal's activity level is below a certain threshold, the penalties should be reduced. Perhaps set more than one activity threshold for different levels of penalty: low activity for a month or two halves penalties, and no activity for a month or two earns those who want to leave a free reform. There's nothing worse than being stuck in a following without an FLI. (Okay, there is, but it is not pleasant ;-) )

To prevent abuse, prevent apostatized characters from worshipping anyone else for a certain period, and prevent them from rejoining the following from which they apostatized. Also make it possible for an FLI to impose post-apostasy punishment, if justified, to punish abuse such as the situation Hork described. To cater for special circumstances, God+ should be able to lift post-apostasy restrictions if justifiable, at their sole discretion, possibly subject to another penalty or requirement.

That apostasy is expensive and is followed by restrictions should be understood to be a code-enforced rule in general, however.

[Rincewind]

This would -normally- be a good idea, however, histroy has shown us that any code that can be abused will be abused. If players are able to leave on their own we will se large increases of betrayals within followings. This will result directly in members of followings not trusting each other any more then you would trust any UA. The damage that will be done to the player base from betrayals and back stabbing and total lack of trust will far exceed what is lost due to "not getting along with the FLI or followers"
While this sounds like an idea that will make things more flexible, I strongly believe it's the type of flexiblility that a structured system of authority does not need. I voted against this and I truely hope this never comes to be.

[Solaron]

This is Solaron and I approve of this message. In fact, I think it is awesome.

(Voted yes with penalties)

[wish]

I voted no. Followings are religious in nature, but they are more than simply churches that you just stop going to. FLI's are active entities with an interest in the actions of their followers. They are not simply symbols for whom you just have to have faith in that they exist. In my opinion, apostasize represents a decay of the power of FLI's.

My alternative idea is that apostasize should be following specific, i.e., the FLI should decide whether or not to make this command available to his or her followers. If they chose not too, then the follower is stuck with his decision.

Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave

[Rincewind]

My alternative idea is that apostasize should be following specific, i.e., the FLI should decide whether or not to make this command available to his or her followers. If they chose not too, then the follower is stuck with his decision.

Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave

That makes more sense. and perhaps this setting could be shown when you type "score" somewhere

[boromir]

Hi,

If a follower wishes to leave, then that follower needs to talk to the FLI in question.

Some FLI's never release followers so they have a choice of letting that character 'idle' in the following or requesting release (and associated penalites) from a higher level immortal. Other FLI's do release followers albeit with conditions.. like no eq etc.

If my memory serves me correct, this command was abused during it's first incarnation,one instance comes to mind where 1 follower killed another follower for eq etc followed by that killer using the apo's command to get out of the following while the FLI was not on-line.

Perhaps a better idea would be to allow a new follower a 3 or 7 (RL) day grace period to leave the following after joining without penalities. This would give the new follower a chance to 'see' the following up close and personal. During that time, the FLI would have the option of blocking the board list from being seen by the new follower.

Frankly, anyone joining a following needs to talk to the members of that following. They also need to spend some time talking to the FLI. Find out what the policies and rules are for that following... i.e. pink leotards tuesdays, blunt weapon thursdays, hangover xping sundays etc. Find all all they can before commiting to the following.

Speaking for myself, when someone joins the Nexus, I do the best I can to help them succeed on TFC. The committment (speaking for myself) is a two way street. Once someone joins the Nexus, I do the best I can for them. And I hope that they return the same level of effort and commitment to the Nexus.

I await your considered opinions!

[Ylang]

I like Wish's idea. I can't see why an FLI shouldn't forbid apostasy. Tecnically, and logically, this might be difficult if you're to permit it in the first place, so perhaps an FLI should be able to set the penalty for apostasy. One who forbids it might instead set a very serious penalty, such as losing five or ten effective levels, or never being eligible for ordainment in future.

I'm with Boromir too, but (with the caveats expressed in the "first ten levels" thread) I think entry requirements are far too lax these days. A minimum level requirement and an entry quest are the least I would expect of any serious following. I haven't come across anyone questing to join a following since my return to TFC some time ago.

One way to reduce the temptation to let just anyone worship would be to have FLI power depend not simply on total members, but only by followers who (i) have been there for some time, and (ii) are sufficiently active. Another is to set (low) mobmastery, scavenger hunt and location quest requirements for entry into a following, to make at least a token quest requirement a default for worshipping. But this is becoming a separate topic altogether.

My original comment in this thread stands, plus support for Wish's idea of FLIs determining whether, or with what penalties, someone can apostasize.

[Rincewind]

I think there is already code in place for FLI's in relation to followers activity, and the FLI should set more then the penalty, they should be able to just shut the command OFF.

[hork]

"May Lord Nash infect your zits with the larvae of a thousand dung beetles".

That was a reputations point I got for my comment. I don't see what this has to do with Nash, it affects every FLI. Your followers not wanting to be there is hardly my fault. Not everything in the realm is about Nash.

[Tokugawa]

I think there is already code in place for FLI's in relation to followers activity, and the FLI should set more then the penalty, they should be able to just shut the command OFF.

The problem with being able to turn the command off is this. The worshipers are still in the same position that they are now. They have no recourse unless the Immortal is declared inactive. I have noticed over the years a few Immortals who stay just active enough to not be declared inactive, but they are not active enough to really interact with the following.

If there was a time limit before the apostatize went into effect this would allow the FLI to handle a situation if they wished and if that FLI was really inactive, then the follower could still be reformed with apostatize.

-Tokugawa

[DarkClaw]

...I'm not sure how to feel about this. One part of me is familiar with what it's like to be stuck in a following with no immortal (inactive), unable to get out, or stuck in a following where the immortal turned into a real jerk and unable to get out. Yet another part of me is pretty sure that it will probably just create utter chaos and discontent, no matter how you slice it.

[wish]

It's okay, Hork. You can tell everyone it was me. Oh wait, I just did. Please, take it light heartedly. That's how I sign all my reputation points, positive and negative. As for it having nothing to do with Lord Nash, I have to disagree. Yes, it affects every FLI, which means it affects Nashite followings, ipso facto, it affects the Nashite faith overall.

Although I feel you should be honored that Lord Nash, through me, has deigned himself to notice you, I will refrain from offending you by giving you reputation comments in the future.


Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave

"May Lord Nash infect your zits with the larvae of a thousand dung beetles".

That was a reputations point I got for my comment. I don't see what this has to do with Nash, it affects every FLI. Your followers not wanting to be there is hardly my fault. Not everything in the realm is about Nash.

[Solaron]

It's okay, Hork. You can tell everyone it was me. Oh wait, I just did. Please, take it light heartedly. That's how I sign all my reputation points, positive and negative. As for it having nothing to do with Lord Nash, I have to disagree. Yes, it affects every FLI, which means it affects Nashite followings, ipso facto, it affects the Nashite faith overall.

Although I feel you should be honored that Lord Nash, through me, has deigned himself to notice you, I will refrain from offending you by giving you reputation comments in the future.


Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave

I've received both positive and negative feedback from the evil cuttlefish, and am pleased to say that I have no lasting negative effects.

Please consult a doctor if you are pregnant, nursing, or plan on becoming pregnant before receiving feedback from the squid.

[hork]

Oh, those reputation things are anonymous. Sorry I took it bit serious. :P

[Corri]

I voted yes, with substantial penalties.

A following is a commitment and an investment from both sides. Having gained strength within a following, you take strength away when you leave it (usually). Actions do not happen in a vacuum. There is usually a tale to be told between a character and deity if they are to the point of unhappy seeking of release and refusal to release.

It will happen, and a character should not be completely dead ended as a result. But they should be willing to make a serious sacrifice to obtain their goal. I would only be in favor of leaving a following without FLI intervention with very serious penalties. Possibilities which come immediately to mind:
-Lose all worn equipment
-Lose all Mish stashed items
-Lose all gold (in inventory and on Mish)
-Lose five levels
-Random stat loss

My goal with the penalties would be to make a situation that any character will find it an active -sacrifice- to make the choice. Sometimes, our situations are worth such a sacrifice.

[DarkClaw]

Possibilities which come immediately to mind:
-Lose all worn equipment
-Lose all Mish stashed items
-Lose all gold (in inventory and on Mish)
-Lose five levels
-Random stat loss

I don't feel losing gold or equipment for it is harsh enough.
I think, generally, those that do want to leave their following
don't really have all that much, anyway. Even so, they are
both easily replaced.

[Solaron]

I don't feel losing gold or equipment for it is harsh enough.
I think, generally, those that do want to leave their following
don't really have all that much, anyway. Even so, they are
both easily replaced.

Losing 5 levels and a random stat is amazingly harsh as it is, more than harsh enough to make up for it.

[Rincewind]

5 levels is nothing. the punishment should be severe enough to force anyone to rethink betrayals.