Remove "Class distribution" from the TFC's Current Stats Page

[Mas]

Hello. I strongly believe that the "Class distribution" section of the TFC Current Stats page should be removed. This is the stat that tells you exactly how many mortals are online and of what classes. This stat gives players who couldn't otherwise see invis or hidden the ability to detect when someone else is online (and given the current atrophied player base, it gives a very good idea of who exactly is online). There is no mortal spell or thief skill that can match or combat this stat because the current stats page is updated instantly and isn't fooled by invis, darkness, or hide. As a result, the "class distribution" stat discourages gameplay and provides incentive for players who cannot see the players listed to guildsit or log off.

I understand it is an interesting stat to have and helpful to track/avoid other PCs and may have been better suited when TFC had a higher activity base, but I currently don't see the justification for having something so powerful available to anyone at any level.

Mas

[Thor]

Removing things like this from the stat page has been suggested sooooo many times before. Most of them, like this one, claim it would help game play. I still have yet to hear a good argument as to exactly how that will help game play. So, people don't leave guild when they know you're on....do you really think people will leave guild more when they don't know for sure? I find it very hard to believe that people are just going to not see someone, and not being able to see how many people are on from the stat page, and just think "oh, I don't see anyone that must mean there are no threats on, I'll just go xp." If anything I see this as encouraging MORE guild sitting. At least now people can know when big threats are gone so they know it's safe to leave guild. But, I never was a very good PKer so I'm biased. I'd like to hear other people's thoughts, especially those who are mostly targets and not hunters. Would lose this info from the stat page seriously make you suddenly want to leave guild?

[Ylang]

I rarely use it. If I did (perhaps when I lack the myriad of other means of detecting threats) I would simply be more conscientious about safety habits, and take fewer risks. As for safesitting, the last time I remember doing that to avoid a PKer was when that PKer planted a wizard mark on my fair elven forehead. This lack of stealth made checking the stats page quite superfluous. The PKer in question was Mas.

[Mas]

I rarely use it. If I did (perhaps when I lack the myriad of other means of detecting threats) I would simply be more conscientious about safety habits, and take fewer risks. As for safesitting, the last time I remember doing that to avoid a PKer was when that PKer planted a wizard mark on my fair elven forehead. This lack of stealth made checking the stats page quite superfluous. The PKer in question was Mas.

Oh Ylang,
That mark wasn't put on your forehead.... though it is cute of you to try to think with other parts of your body! I'll be sure to wizmark your corpse when I kill you in Barbegazi.

Love,
Mas

[Cecil]

I have the page up constantly. Its incredibly easy to use the page to tell if threats are on. Additionally if an ordained mortal is obscuring me, I can simply use the page to see if they are online. Its not exactly common to see multiple ordainded players these days. I feel this is an out-of-game tool that is very easily and effectively usable to obtain in-game information. I admit I am guilty of using it, but as long as its here why not? But I do feel it would GREATLY enhance game play if this portion of the page was removed. Whats the point of someone pumping their invis or getting an invis from their god, or hiding, if you can simply check the page to see if they are online? This feature takes far more away from the game than it adds.

I mean really, what is there to GAIN by having this feature? All it does it let you know things you shouldnt be able to find out outside the game.

Thor, by your logic......
Why then, should it be illegal to log on a big char, see whos online, log off then log in your smaller character to go and xp. Why should it be illegal to log on one character, info a target, log out and bring in another character to go kill them. The only difference is that checking a webpage is not a violation of the character seperation policy, though it achieves basically the same thing. I appreciate the fact that you admit you are a bit biased. I was never a killer of innocents, but I did spend many years combating the evil pk'ers. I know from years of experience that if someone knows there is a threat online that is after them that they cannot see, it is going to affect the way they play. I think there needs to be an appreciation for the time and effort that goes into hiding your presence from other players.

And for my closing arguement.....For those in support of the page.....why does it only show Visable Immortals? Why not show invisible immortals as well? Isnt it the same thing? If you argue that knowing someone is online isnt really going to change the way you play, then shouldnt the same be true for immortals? I can assure you that if I suspected that a players immortal was online to support them, I'd think twice about fighting them. Just like I'd think twice about fighting a player if I sthe page told me their lvl 50 buddy was hiding somewhere......

[Xixxo]

Cecil's obviously not thinking too clearly, and Mas is a whiner, and I am not surprised he would be one to (re-)mention this topic. Rules violations are rules violations, and character separation is in the rules... Viewing a web page that describes the classes of characters that are playing TFC at any given time has no ties to breaking character separation. Nor does it divulge exactly which mortals are online. What has been questioned of Thor's logic is NOT the same thing.

As for your closing arguement - if it can be so construed: NAMES. Names are what is important here. Visible immortals' names vs. non-visible are what is shown in that category. The immortals have a right to be online and not have players calling them out.

If only everyone could be elven.

[Cecil]

If there were 20-30+ people on at most times I would agree that the page makes little difference. But with the current player base, any moron can figure out who is online fairly easily. The page doesnt make so much of a difference in that it lets you know who is online when you enter the game....but who is STILL online when someone dissapears.

[Ylang]

If I did (perhaps when I lack the myriad of other means of detecting threats) I would simply be more conscientious about safety habits, and take fewer risks.

That was badly written, sorry. I mean, if I needed the stats page (when I lack other means of threat detection) but it wasn't there, I would be more conscientious and take fewer risks.

The point is that if you weren't sure, you'd always be careful. You wouldn't always take the risks you might take if you were sure of your safety.

In my opinion, reducing the ability to know who might be online wouldn't benefit PKers. In fact, it would probably put them at a disadvantage because as it is, the stats page can lull players into a false sense of security, especially if they don't monitor it constantly.

I don't really care either way.

For what it's worth, when I'm in a social mood, I do sometimes use it to check whether it's worth logging on, or which character it's worth logging on (the one everyone knows, or one of my less sociable alts). It's kinda pointless gossiping with yourself.

[Silonch]

I disagree with Mas.

The stats page is fine the way it is.

[lins]

Hello. I strongly believe that the "Class distribution" section of the TFC Current Stats page should be removed. This is the stat that tells you exactly how many mortals are online and of what classes. This stat gives players who couldn't otherwise see invis or hidden the ability to detect when someone else is online (and given the current atrophied player base, it gives a very good idea of who exactly is online). There is no mortal spell or thief skill that can match or combat this stat because the current stats page is updated instantly and isn't fooled by invis, darkness, or hide. As a result, the "class distribution" stat discourages gameplay and provides incentive for players who cannot see the players listed to guildsit or log off.

I understand it is an interesting stat to have and helpful to track/avoid other PCs and may have been better suited when TFC had a higher activity base, but I currently don't see the justification for having something so powerful available to anyone at any level.

Mas

Heyz Maszez,

I'zz don'z getz it whyzz youzz hazzn't been talkingz like thatzzz! It wasz szo hard for meez to getz your meaningzz of thiz mezzage!

But afterzz readingz carefullyzz I now knowz what youzz meanz dude.

And I am undecided.
I partly think Mas is whining. I for one do leave safe even if baddies are on, I don't care. I do check the page though, so I know how many people are online. If I need ID's I check the page and see a mage is on. *shrug* I don't think it's a such a bad thing. On the other hand I do think Mas has a point, some people safesit because of the page.

But *shrug*.

[Anandunaiss]

This is an observation outside the previous responses, since the class distribution section is part of the stats page, one option would be to just delay the information by 24 hours, that way the stats are still made known, just not in any way that would affect game play (or even a shorter delay like 6). Not sure if this would be difficult to do since I'm no genius when it comes to the internets, but just another thought.

[morgaine]

I have been in support of this idea every time it has been posted. I was extremely pleased when the stats page was generalized and level ranges were removed.

I can see both points of the argument, but in my oppinion... no one is going to be threatened by something they don't know. People can still use magistrate to check for the Uber threats, and these days thats a small list... here, I think there are three essential differences. First, the character has to log into the realm to get an idea of who is online, there's no hrm stats are full of mages and rangers I think ill bring on a newbie. Second, that character has to leave gh and go to the magistrate to check a bounty... many a character has died in those hallways. Third, characters have to know who they are looking for, they have to know the name to bounty and can't rely on "there's a mage I can't see, I'm going to safe sit." Or possibly, "Oh, 9 mages on news page, I'll go play WOW".

Honestly, someone is more apt to safe sit when they are aware of an unknown (possible threat) then when they just don't know, and are unaware. The stats page is especially distructive to OM's as it removes many of the benefits of obscure.

Realistically I would love to continue the argument I have posted many times that TFC is damaged by lack of death, especially in the lower character levels where recovery is easier and the lessons learned are essential to building longevity. It's a hard point to prove, though I feel the current argument in support of the I need this page is a scardy cat tactic of those who rely on the page to avoid PK.

-Morgaine

[Tynian]

I'm tired of splitting hairs on the stats page.

If it's really that big of a deal, I'll simply remove it.

But really, I don't see what the fuss is about.

[lins]

If it's really that big of a deal, I'll simply remove it.

Maybe you can let people vote for it so you see how many people actually care? IMO: not many...

[Gertrude]

in my oppion it should stay up it is so easy to find someone anyways, the advantage allways go to the PKer with a big invis. when a big pker logs in everyone else logs out or logs on their evil. how will this help gain more players it will only help big pkers pk even easier then it allready is.

[boromir]

Hi,

I'd prefer to see that stats left on the page.

If someone counting stats makes it impossible to pk, that would be interesting. Since the stats are pretty much a composite value, I guess having someone know there are mages on would make a differenece?

As of this posting, there are 4 clerics, 3 shamans and 2 mages on.

Um yeah .. that tells me alot.

Given a choice, I'd say leave them there.

[Rincewind]

I also see both sides, however, I think it boils down to this. Keeping it helps people play safer and stay alive longer. Removing it will force XPers to take -some- additional risks which will benefit PKers. Wanna help people live, or help killers kill? I think PK is too rare myself.. but no matter, either way one side or the other will whine about it, so save yourself the work of removing it, cause either way you'll have to listen to whinin..

btw, I laughed my ass of at lins' post with all the -z's- hahaha, maz iz such a twitz

[Matthias]

Maybe you can let people vote for it so you see how many people actually care? IMO: not many...

yeah.. not many care.. cause not many PK.
people who PK care, because it kills it for PKers.

if it was taken off stats page, people would have to take.. wait for it.. RISKS.

****GASP****

Linkin says (in common), "a RISK?? whats that?".

YES, a risk. people will have to leave safe, maybe check Magistrate once and a while to see if certain players are on..

for mage PKers, it heavily dilutes the full potential of invis or darkness.

for thieves, it does the same for hide.

for OMs, it does the same for obscure.

i know, im neither a mage, thief, or OM.. but its bad enough we(PKers) have a 5 minute restriction period before we can attack anybody. that just gives players who use stats page (everybody else..) 3-5 minutes to see if there is a threat on so they can either run back to guild, or sit at a safe room until the person logs.

maybe we should just try it =]

[boromir]

Hi,

Stats or no Stats...

Where do I start? ... hmmmm

PK'ers and the 5 minutes restriction..
that went into place as you all will remember because there were too many people playing a character and watching who logged in. Then logging out that character and logging in their PKer to get the target their first character saw logging in. Which isnt QUITE realistic...sneaky yes .. anywhere close to realistic No
I wont even go into Char seperation

Magistrate and checking
A good idea and people should use it. On the other hand, an effective level 26 cleric (cleric warrior) may be hesitant about leaving guild knowing there are high level mages he/she cant see who can and will pk him/her. And finds this out via the stats page so they sit in safe or log out. Without the stats page, they might log in and ask around to fnd out who is on and probably still log out if they cant get a definitive answer. Just a question of how long it takes them to read the stats page or ask people.

PK PK PK !! we need more PK!
Those who pk have always wanted more opportunities to pk and thats very understandable. The PK'ees want the PKers to have fewer opportuniities as one would expect. Having a composite views of the classes on the stats page helps a bit but not as much as one would think. Given the on-going trend of having sub eff 20's pkers camping waiting for people to move into their pk range works against the stat page issue. Most of the eff 20+ players either know how to duck and dodge the pker or just dont play when they know a certain pker tends to log in.

Perhaps we need to amend the timing of the stats page and provide a 5 minute delay on the stat postings so that it matches the login restrictions period mentioned in an earlier post.

If you are getting too few PK's, change your tactics!

If you are getting pked too much, change your tactics!

Either way, you need to adapt!

IMHO, too much is being made of this particular issue.. that is to say , just play the game and get on with it!


Your considered opinions!

[Tynian]

No, we're not going to just try it.

I believe the class distribution on the stats page is being blown out of proportion, just to give some out there something to point to and say, "Things are SO unfair!"

Even if this was removed, we'd just rally around something else.

Thread is closed because I've made my decision.