A couple of spell/skill ideas...

[Pol]

1. Since Shaman can give mana, health and moves, how about spells to allow Shaman to *take* mana, health and moves from either willing or unwilling targets.

2. Wisdom ostensibly raises Shaman/Cleric spell damage and effectiveness - can Int affect Mage spells in a similar way as well?

2.5 - un-nerf Lightning Bolt and Fireball.

3. Can rescue be added to the skill list for Ordained?

4. Give high-level mages the ability to drain mana from magical items - compensate for that 40 mana imp id :P. Maybe take hp's away to use it.

5. Give Good-aligned clerics Raise Dead - casting it on a corpse causes the slain person to return to their old body fully equipped. A higher level spell - Ressurect - returns them to their body equipped and fully healed. Perhaps even have this spell reduce xp loss to the victim in return for etching the mana and/or xp of the cleric casting it.

5.5 Did I mention un-nerf Lightning Bolt and Fireball?

6. A Use Magical Device skill for Bards - or perhaps Thieves as well - that allows the character to use devices not otherwise allowed - wands, staves, relics, fetishes, etc.

7. Since Soul Rift ostensibly attacks the "spirit" of the target, make it ineffective against plant mobs (or other mobs that don't leave ghosts).

8. Wall of Fog - for Mages and/or Shaman - that makes a room foggy temporarily.

9. Allow Faerie Fog to persist for a time such that fogging a room forces those entering it to save against losing their hide/sneak/invis (sort of like phosphate, but without the pink aura).

10. Improved Sneak - to allow passage past Alarms and aggro mobs.

11. Along the same lines - Improved Hide - to allow limited commands (like Peek, Look, moving between rooms, Cant, etc.) without breaking Hide.

12. Gust of Wind - Mage spell that, similar to Hurricaine, blows inventory items off of mobs in the room. Perhaps also clears fogged rooms for a time.

And lastly, before I forget to mention it...

13. Un-neft Lightning Bolt and Fireball.

Cheers!

Pol O'Song.

[Nicademus]

7. Since Soul Rift ostensibly attacks the "spirit" of the target, make it ineffective against plant mobs (or other mobs that don't leave ghosts).

Some good ideas here. Some really bad, like the one above. Sorry Pol, I love ya man, but Shamans are hard enough to play without you making their only really effective spell useless against an entire subset of mobs.

Now- if you want to give shamans more skills/spells to counteract Rift not working in the manner discussed above that could be discussed.

Two more points: (1) you clearly have complaints about lightining and fireball, however I have seen these spells be pretty effective. Making them stronger only makes mages more powerful and again weakens to utilitiy of the shaman class; (2) you list so many ideas, some really good, but they are all over the place with respect to class. This makes it hard to respond. Maybe break up some posts by classes so we can really discuss these ideas.

Nic

[Elladan]

1. Since Shaman can give mana, health and moves, how about spells to allow Shaman to *take* mana, health and moves from either willing or unwilling targets.

I think Absorb and Rift take care of taking away mana and health quite effectively.

[Katrana]

1. Since Shaman can give mana, health and moves, how about spells to allow Shaman to *take* mana, health and moves from either willing or unwilling targets.

Too much like energy drain for my tastes. Personally I don't like it that mages can memo anything either. I like distinct classes. But hey that's my opinion

2. Wisdom ostensibly raises Shaman/Cleric spell damage and effectiveness - can Int affect Mage spells in a similar way as well?

Undecided on this one.

2.5 - un-nerf Lightning Bolt and Fireball.

Mages in TFC are a utility class. They are not like mages in other realms, they don't nuke they don't do high damage fast. That's what shamans are in TFC. I do agree that fireball needs to do what it was intially intended to do, and burning/etching needs to be buffed again. I feel lightning bolt is just fine though.

3. Can rescue be added to the skill list for Ordained?

That's a good idea. But I feel if they do not have a class that can rescue, they should only be able to rescue people from their own following.

4. Give high-level mages the ability to drain mana from magical items - compensate for that 40 mana imp id :P. Maybe take hp's away to use it.

Hrm, dunno on this one.

5. Give Good-aligned clerics Raise Dead - casting it on a corpse causes the slain person to return to their old body fully equipped. A higher level spell - Ressurect - returns them to their body equipped and fully healed. Perhaps even have this spell reduce xp loss to the victim in return for etching the mana and/or xp of the cleric casting it.

Completely against this one. This would tip the balance scale. I could already see the uproar like the one with evil clerics having link. Maybe I'd be for it if it would take full mana, and evil clerics got link back. But that could be way powerful, way too powerful, I could see a few ways to make certain people could take advantage of it. Now if it permanently etched mana. As in their mana would go from 400 to 395...permanently...hrm, that brings a twist to it...Good idea, but I don' think it'd work in our world.

6. A Use Magical Device skill for Bards - or perhaps Thieves as well - that allows the character to use devices not otherwise allowed - wands, staves, relics, fetishes, etc.

I'd say give a small lag to the class who it isn't intended for after the use of the device. Like if a bard uses a wand, give a lag after the zap, a lag that wouldn't normally be there if a mage used it. Perhaps chance of failure as well.

7. Since Soul Rift ostensibly attacks the "spirit" of the target, make it ineffective against plant mobs (or other mobs that don't leave ghosts).

Okay, only if it hits twice as hard on anything with a soul! I'm with Nic on this one. Shamans would have no way to kill something with 'no soul' then. Besides, if their alive, and kicking my booty - something is makin' them live anyway.

8. Wall of Fog - for Mages and/or Shaman - that makes a room foggy temporarily.

Hrm...interesting...I like it.

9. Allow Faerie Fog to persist for a time such that fogging a room forces those entering it to save against losing their hide/sneak/invis (sort of like phosphate, but without the pink aura).

Once again, it'll be crossing into another classes area, faerie fire, and phosphate serve that purpose.

10. Improved Sneak - to allow passage past Alarms and aggro mobs.

I like it

11. Along the same lines - Improved Hide - to allow limited commands (like Peek, Look, moving between rooms, Cant, etc.) without breaking Hide.

I like it

12. Gust of Wind - Mage spell that, similar to Hurricaine, blows inventory items off of mobs in the room. Perhaps also clears fogged rooms for a time..

No. Once again, I do not like spells that cross over to other classes areas. Hurricane is shaman spell, leave it there.

My opinions, whee! Thanks, for the ideas, I've not heard of some of them.

[kehrindrek]

start a warrior class if you want rescue.

no wait i actually mean give rescue to thieves! haha

[Anduin]

I dunno the name or whatever, but I think a spell similar to survey for mages and their alarms/wiz marks would be neat for a shaman to locate possible corpses they would necroport to. That way they could see some of the locations they'd turn up in, as well as if there are any period at the time since it's not always possible to necroport at all.

[Pol]

14. Enhance Shaman Attunement or Soul Sense to determine if something died in a room recently.

15. Clarification on Raise Dead and/or Ressurect - all this would do is return a character to the place of their death (or where their corpse currently is) and equip whatever remained in their corpse. I see this more of a convenience spell than anything - group is out exp'ing, a member dies, the cleric can return the fallen member of the party to the group or a Cleric does a CR for a low-level, forgets to group them so they can't take the corpse, raises them instead. It would also beef up "Good" as an alignment and make it more appealing.

16. Change Turning for Evil Clerics such that ghosts become charmed rather than destroyed (vis ADnD).

17. Single-classed Warriors used to be a maistay of the MUD and have always been great candidates for heroes - not to mention the best tanks around. A few suggestions to beef up this overlooked class:

• Allow single-classed warriors a Specialization skill which gives extra hr/dmg when using a particular weapon type.
• Some special attacks - like Knockdown, Trip, Bash - that while not dealing out damage, can assist in a fight - add a bit of strategy to playing a Warrior.
• Stunning Attack - when successful, causes the opponent to not attack, dodge or parry for a round or two, when unsuccessful causes the Warrior to trip and fall.
• Enhanced healing - similar to the way mana regenerates at a higher rate for spell-casters, allow a single-classed Warrior to regenerate HP's at a higher rate as well - perhaps up to 15/tick standing and 35/tick sleeping.
• Allow large race (Ogres and Giants, and perhaps Minotaurs) single-class Warriors to wield two-handed weapons one-handed.

Of course, these benefits are lost upon multi-classing.

18. RE: Kat's point about mages being a "utility" class in response to Fireball/Bolt - what the hell is that supposed to mean? All three spell classes have transport spells, protection spells, information/detection spells, attack spells, misc. spells. I guess every class is a "utility" class.

Dealing damage in the name of the game - both clerics and shaman have spells that can hit demo or better. What's so unbalanced in giving mages a spell that can at least demo at high levels? Further, mage spells have many restrictions - colout spray doesn't work in dark or against blinded targets, fireball doesn't work and lightning bolt/chain lightning zaps both caster and target underwater, etc. I'm all for giving Shaman other single-target offensive spells - the more the merrier. In the end, the rest of it is just window dressing - the end result, doint x points of damage to a target, is all that really matters. I'd just like to see Lightning Bolt and Fireball competitive with Thunderclap, Firestorm, Spitirual Hammer, Rift, Flamestrike, etc.

19. The better defensive Cleric/Mage spells are available in random potions - Shaman spells are not. Add random Cloak, and perhaps the rare (as rare as brights) absorb and/or exclude potion to the mix.

20. Give Thugs an Intimidate skill - rather than Mugging, which starts a fight, Intimidate will get gold without starting a fight. Base it on level difference and perhaps the Charisma of the Thug as well (give a use for all those random +chr items besides shoppies).

Cheers,

Pol O'Song.

[Katrana]

18. RE: Kat's point about mages being a "utility" class in response to Fireball/Bolt - what the hell is that supposed to mean? All three spell classes have transport spells, protection spells, information/detection spells, attack spells, misc. spells. I guess every class is a "utility" class.

Dealing damage in the name of the game - both clerics and shaman have spells that can hit demo or better. What's so unbalanced in giving mages a spell that can at least demo at high levels? Further, mage spells have many restrictions - colout spray doesn't work in dark or against blinded targets, fireball doesn't work and lightning bolt/chain lightning zaps both caster and target underwater, etc. I'm all for giving Shaman other single-target offensive spells - the more the merrier. In the end, the rest of it is just window dressing - the end result, doint x points of damage to a target, is all that really matters. I'd just like to see Lightning Bolt and Fireball competitive with Thunderclap, Firestorm, Spitirual Hammer, Rift, Flamestrike, etc.

Let me see, okay, so you want a spell that does massive damage. Honestly how many clerics do you see ever using spiritual hammer, flamestrike, or any of their other spells past level 21. They are not mana efficient, and are not reliable. Every cleric I know would rather save their mana for a healing spell. What else, oh shamans, right? Yea, necroport is a highly efficient travel spell, considering that corpses of a certain age have to be out and you have no idea where you will land. Clerics heal, shamans rift, mages id, and portal. Protection spells? Shamans have cloak, whoopie, cloak needs to be buffed up if it is considered protection, absorb is good, and exclude needs to be more mana efficient and last longer if it is even considered useful. Clerics and mages both have an adequate set of protection spells. See my point. Everyone has their 'main' class identification so to call it. Mages have darken, silence, jump, magic missile, which isn't affected by svs. Also mages can memorize rift, they can memo all of those spells you so desire. So please, look at what mages already have access to. That is what I mean by a utility class, they can use wands, scrolls, have access to very nice portal, and protection spells, and can cast every spell accessible to scrolls. Which is all the things you are looking for.

I said I agreed with you that, acid blast and fireball need to be brought back to how they were. But I do not agree with a high damage spell - as they have access to that in other ways. That's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.

[pitt]

• Allow large race (Ogres and Giants, and perhaps Minotaurs) single-class Warriors to wield two-handed weapons one-handed.

I like this, I think I suggested it a long time ago, but make it just for Giants. Ogres have enough advantages already. You hardly ever see a Giant player, and they need some serious advantages to make up for their very inconvenient hometowns

[Sasha]

17. Single-classed Warriors used to be a maistay of the MUD and have always been great candidates for heroes - not to mention the best tanks around. A few suggestions to beef up this overlooked class:

• Allow single-classed warriors a Specialization skill which gives extra hr/dmg when using a particular weapon type.
• Some special attacks - like Knockdown, Trip, Bash - that while not dealing out damage, can assist in a fight - add a bit of strategy to playing a Warrior.
• Stunning Attack - when successful, causes the opponent to not attack, dodge or parry for a round or two, when unsuccessful causes the Warrior to trip and fall.
• Enhanced healing - similar to the way mana regenerates at a higher rate for spell-casters, allow a single-classed Warrior to regenerate HP's at a higher rate as well - perhaps up to 15/tick standing and 35/tick sleeping.
• Allow large race (Ogres and Giants, and perhaps Minotaurs) single-class Warriors to wield two-handed weapons one-handed.

As one of the few high level single classed warriors i've seen when i'm on at least - i'm all for adding some new skills. right now i kill mob, blynd mob, and kick kick kick kick. it would be fun to trip or bash and knockdown in between the kick kick kicks... I also like the enhanced healing idea - even with max con - it still takes a long long time to regen, and i'm an ogre, so lots of hps and lots of sitting around waiting to heal up to go smash more things! *grunt* i don't really want to rule the realm - well maybe i do - but it would be great if it were leveled out a bit more. Because being a high level single class warrior isn't very intimidating for anyone with a magic class running around looking for some pk fun.

Instead im just the little bitty ogre warrior jumping around at their ankles. Aww, isn't that cute?

[Tynian]

1. Since Shaman can give mana, health and moves, how about spells to allow Shaman to *take* mana, health and moves from either willing or unwilling targets.

Maybe.

2. Wisdom ostensibly raises Shaman/Cleric spell damage and effectiveness - can Int affect Mage spells in a similar way as well?

Perhaps.

2.5 - un-nerf Lightning Bolt and Fireball.

Mage doesn't need any help. I did a quick survey of active characters, and those with a mage class (43) outnumber clerics (37) and shamans (14).

3. Can rescue be added to the skill list for Ordained?

No. OM isn't meant as a "full" class. They probably have too much as it is.

4. Give high-level mages the ability to drain mana from magical items - compensate for that 40 mana imp id :P. Maybe take hp's away to use it.

Maybe shamans could do something like this, as an ability to destroy all the heathen magic that is floating out there...

5. Give Good-aligned clerics Raise Dead - casting it on a corpse causes the slain person to return to their old body fully equipped. A higher level spell - Ressurect - returns them to their body equipped and fully healed. Perhaps even have this spell reduce xp loss to the victim in return for etching the mana and/or xp of the cleric casting it.

Interesting idea. I don't think clerics should be my area of focus, however.

6. A Use Magical Device skill for Bards - or perhaps Thieves as well - that allows the character to use devices not otherwise allowed - wands, staves, relics, fetishes, etc.

I... don't know.

7. Since Soul Rift ostensibly attacks the "spirit" of the target, make it ineffective against plant mobs (or other mobs that don't leave ghosts).

Maybe plants do have souls, and we just don't know...

8. Wall of Fog - for Mages and/or Shaman - that makes a room foggy temporarily.

Maybe.

9. Allow Faerie Fog to persist for a time such that fogging a room forces those entering it to save against losing their hide/sneak/invis (sort of like phosphate, but without the pink aura).

Don't like it.

10. Improved Sneak - to allow passage past Alarms and aggro mobs.

Sounds awfully powerful...

11. Along the same lines - Improved Hide - to allow limited commands (like Peek, Look, moving between rooms, Cant, etc.) without breaking Hide.

Don't like it.

12. Gust of Wind - Mage spell that, similar to Hurricaine, blows inventory items off of mobs in the room. Perhaps also clears fogged rooms for a time.

No. We must avoid the temptation of "look alike" spells.

[Pol]

Quick question Tyn - of the active Mages in the game, how many are single classed, and how many are multi compared to Clerics and Shaman?

-Pol

[Tynian]

I dunno the name or whatever, but I think a spell similar to survey for mages and their alarms/wiz marks would be neat for a shaman to locate possible corpses they would necroport to. That way they could see some of the locations they'd turn up in, as well as if there are any period at the time since it's not always possible to necroport at all.

I'm not crazy about this idea.

[Tynian]

14. Enhance Shaman Attunement or Soul Sense to determine if something died in a room recently.

Why?

Of course, these benefits are lost upon multi-classing.

In general, I'm not crazy about skills and/or spells that disappear upon multiclassing.

20. Give Thugs an Intimidate skill - rather than Mugging, which starts a fight, Intimidate will get gold without starting a fight. Base it on level difference and perhaps the Charisma of the Thug as well (give a use for all those random +chr items besides shoppies).

Interesting idea.

[Tynian]

Quick question Tyn - of the active Mages in the game, how many are single classed, and how many are multi compared to Clerics and Shaman?

-Pol

I don't know, and I can't say that it makes a difference to me, especially given how our multiclass system works.

[Cordir]

In response to Pol suggesting: 14. Enhance Shaman Attunement or Soul Sense to determine if something died in a room recently, Tynian responded, "Why?"

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When you are trying to do a CR for a newbie who died to a shark in a room called, "Riding The Waves" ... it would be helpful, I would think, to know if you'd actually FOUND the room where the death occured, but the corpse had already been grabbed. Otherwise, folks spend quite some time wandering around trying to find a corpse that's already gone. (As Shaman don't have Locate, they can't do periodic checks to see if the corpse is still there.)

-Cordir

[Anathema]

In response to Pol suggesting: 14. Enhance Shaman Attunement or Soul Sense to determine if something died in a room recently, Tynian responded, "Why?"

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When you are trying to do a CR for a newbie who died to a shark in a room called, "Riding The Waves" ... it would be helpful, I would think, to know if you'd actually FOUND the room where the death occured, but the corpse had already been grabbed. Otherwise, folks spend quite some time wandering around trying to find a corpse that's already gone. (As Shaman don't have Locate, they can't do periodic checks to see if the corpse is still there.)

-Cordir

I suggested on another string that shamans get something like locate corpse. That would be fairly easy to code, not as useful as locate object, but rectify the concern raised by Cordir and also allow shamans to use necroport every once in a while.

Shuger

[scelus]

Why would I want to use necroport, it's worse than a bad recall. I'm half dead and sprawled out on the ground, when I get to who knows where. I'll take my chances with random curse/teleport potions to get places.

[Katrana]

Why would I want to use necroport, it's worse than a bad recall. I'm half dead and sprawled out on the ground, when I get to who knows where. I'll take my chances with random curse/teleport potions to get places.

Hehe, I remember when Wunk got pk'ed cause he was necroporting out of boredom. While that sucked, it still cracks me up, was a clever pk too by the Ironwolf crew, or was it the Tucson people...I don't remember. Poor SuperWunk! Nananana!

[Anathema]

Hehe, I remember when Wunk got pk'ed cause he was necroporting out of boredom. While that sucked, it still cracks me up, was a clever pk too by the Ironwolf crew, or was it the Tucson people...I don't remember. Poor SuperWunk! Nananana!

Like I said, I have never even used the spell so have no idea how it works, what shape you end up in or anything. Maybe the spell needs to be fixed to address the concerns you mention. Its amazing how many useless spells and skils shamans have.