Feedback for MAX stats on objects

[Tokugawa]

Since this has come up a couple of times in regards to Mas' zones. I thought I would ask for feedback and see what people think is a good balance for max stats on limited items. If I get enough feedback on this I will be able to put together a good idea of what we should have for a max stats guide. I could then have this for area authors to use as a guide when writing zones. I think this would help them to know what the maximum stats on items can be. It would also help me nail down what we want as the max stats for items.

Zones that are exceedingly hard, could be adjusted a little to allow for some flexibility. But in general, this this would be a rare exception.

Below are the stats that are used in item creation. Please respond with what you think should be the max allowed stat for each affect. If someone wanted to have multiple effects on an item, then I would allow that, but they would have to drop each effect by possibly a factor of two or three depending on how many effects they wanted on an item.

If I am missing something from the below list please post about it in the thread.

Thanks for your feedback.

Strength

Dexterity

Intelligence

Wisdom

Constitution

Mana

Hit

Move

Armor Rating (for metal) non-metal cannot be greater than 5.

Armor Class (additional armor class apply for non-metal armor)

Hitroll

Damroll

Save vs spell

Charisma

Luck

Damage Absorbtion

Magical Resistance

One Handed Weapon Sharp (max high end of the weapon damage range)

One Handed Weapon Blunt (max high end of the weapon damage range)

Two Handed Weapon Sharp (max high end of the weapon damage range)

Two Handed Weapon Blunt (max high end of the weapon damage range)

Container Carry Capacity

Twist Rings (Max charges and spell level)

Scrolls (Max spell level)

Fetish (Max charges and spell level)

Relic (Max charges and spell level)

Ring (Max charges and spell level)

Staff (Max charges and spell level)

Wand (Max charges and spell level)

[Kurix]

Apologies for not replying in the proscribed format, but I feel that any numbers I arbitrarily spit out in answer to your question would not fully answer what I believe is the true issue at hand. To that end I have attempted to explain below how I believe new limited items should be handled in all future cases using a more “general guideline” approach which I believe is more appropriate.

----------- Warning: Wall of Text to follow!! -----------

One of the bigger reasons I don’t believe just throwing out maximums is productive is because of the myriad of other factors which need to be taken into consideration when assigning stats to an item which a maximum doesn’t address. To name off a few, Worn slot (gear/jewelry should have good stats, Lights/WWPs significantly less so), ease of acquisition, other flags (NR/ND), Enchantable, Specific Spell for wands/fetishes etc (attunement for instance could be fine at 10+ charges and level doesn't matter, Sanc or Heal on the other hand should probably be 4 or less and in the case of Sanc level is very important), Precedents set by other limited items (5 int 5 wis lights shouldn’t exist when no other limited item in the game even comes close, neither should avg 9 enchantable ND blunt weapons), The number of a given item available (Not a balance cure-all, 1 5int 5wis light is unacceptable but even balanced items can be unbalanced if there are too many of them), etc.

I believe things like this will need to be handled on a case by case basis. I think in general most of the players on this game tend to be pretty rational which is why a lot of people were unhappy to find out about "Mas' Toy Chest" (A nickname for the Mage Tower for which I can unfortunately take no credit).

A general rule of thumb I would personally use is: "If a given item has stats which completely outshine all other items in its category at the time it is being introduced to the game that item should not be introduced, in addition at all times the Random > Limiteds balance should be maintained." An important caveat to this rule is that some stats as was pointed out to me by someone I had a chat with about the items from the “Toy Chest” have been notably ignored over the years (specifically DA), so it is possible in the case of some stats that no significant precedent will have already been set, in which case that stat should be compared to its nearest cousin stat (In this case SVS) and balanced along the same lines.

The reason I say Randoms should be better than limiteds is because they are Random, both in where they appear and what appears on them. I might for instance go randoming trying to find a 5 da, 5 svs chest piece. I might spend weeks of playtime randoming (The amount of work and time we’re talking about here is a very important part of my argument, and I think the time frame given is actually on the low end of what is likely for an item of the caliber we are discussing) and finally find A SINGLE 10 stat item, but to my disappointment it is 5da, 5Str (which even then would be amazing to have gotten so close) or some other stat which I already have a nice combo for in another slot, or has useless stats like moves, or one of the stats are negative, or etc etc etc. Now I have to choose between excellent pieces (Or in the case its junk go back to randoming and hope to get "lucky" again). This isn't the case with limiteds, you know what you are getting before you pick them up, they are the same every time, and they are (comparatively) easy to pop.

Simple Rings are another great example, the gold needed to purchase a simple ring takes no small amount of time to gather, and the charges from an enchant relic to get a nice enchant on your ring can cost a pretty penny as well, if you don't have to try to random one yourself (taking even longer). No limited item in the game should even come close to being comparable in power to a simple ring because no limited, no matter how difficult to obtain and how many people it takes to obtain it is going to be as time consuming and difficult or as risky to obtain as a Simple Ring (risky because going out golding exposes you to PK).

The counter argument I most often hear for why Limiteds should be powerful is because they are “limited” as in there are only a few of them out there in the game so its “ok” for them to be powerful. While this is true on some levels, Randoms (especially randoms with excellent stats) are so rare as to be in most cases equivalently limited in practice, even though they are unlimited in theory, and as highlighted above are not possible to just “go out and pop” since finding them is a matter of pure luck and persistence.

I tried to read back over that wall of text a few times to make sure I didn’t make any glaring errors in logic or leave my reasons unexplained if however I have left holes I will be happy to further explain myself.

[Anandunaiss]

Here's my two cents. The numbers below are just what i think is reasonable from what I have seen in TFC thus far, some of the weapon maxes i'm not too familiar with, but an ogre wielding a tree for a club would seem to cause more damage than if he had just a claymore...
the ?? marks indicate I have insufficient knowledge of these items to comment effectively on their limits.
Of course, there could be exceptions to the stats limits (6 or 7 on enchant relics or really, really nice pieces of eq or quest eq.)



5 Strength

5 Dexterity

5 Intelligence

5 Wisdom

5 Constitution

30 Mana

5 Hit

30 Move

20 Armor Rating (for metal) non-metal cannot be greater than 5.

-6 Armor Class (additional armor class apply for non-metal armor)

5 Hitroll

5 Damroll

-5 Save vs spell

5 Charisma

5 Luck

5 Damage Absorbtion

-5 Magical Resistance

10-11 One Handed Weapon Sharp (max high end of the weapon damage range)

15-20 One Handed Weapon Blunt (max high end of the weapon damage range)

15-25 Two Handed Weapon Sharp (max high end of the weapon damage range)

15-30 Two Handed Weapon Blunt (max high end of the weapon damage range)

?? Container Carry Capacity

?? Twist Rings (Max charges and spell level)

?? Scrolls (Max spell level)

??Fetish (Max charges and spell level)

?? Relic (Max charges and spell level)

?? Ring (Max charges and spell level)

?? Staff (Max charges and spell level)

?? Wand (Max charges and spell level)

[Tokugawa]

Apologies for not replying in the proscribed format, but I feel that any numbers I arbitrarily spit out in answer to your question would not fully answer what I believe is the true issue at hand. To that end I have attempted to explain below how I believe new limited items should be handled in all future cases using a more “general guideline” approach which I believe is more appropriate.

Unfortunately, this does not really help. As there is no way I can remember all the various types of "good items" out there and then balance the objects for a new zone accordingly. This is why I wanted a general idea for what people thought was a good maximum for items.

[Kurix]

I just don't see how you can properly answer that question with a blanket statement of "X amount of Y Stat Max" when you don't know anything else about the item.

Even "in general" whatever that means if you take everything out except for slots (which would be foolhardy) there is a WILD variance in the amount of stats which are acceptable from one slot to the next.

Amulets could have more because amulets pop constantly, Sleeves would need less because sleeves pop very rarely so good limited sleeves would be much more valuable than good limited amulet.

The fact is the number of stats that are appropriate for an item depend on too many other variables for this kind of inquiry and for this style of balance.


EDIT: In response to "I can't remember all the "good items" out there and balance accordingly". I have to assume (and correct me if i'm wrong) that somewhere there is a database for limited items (and if there isn't I'll make an idea post here in a minute that Imms need to make and maintain such a database). A database where you could go in after a zone has been submitted and check its limiteds in order to see how they stack up. You personally remembering every item out there isn't what I'm asking for.

I'm asking that at some point we look at the items we're putting in the game and go "Is this really ok? How does it compare to items we have implemented in the past in both stats and the difficulty of obtaining said item?" Mas' Toy Chest is exactly what happens when this isn't done. Perhaps I am speaking too much from ignorance here as I'm not sure how zones are checked before implementation but I don't see how some of these crazy items that are so over and above every other limited in the game got through EN MASSE. Its not like its one or two hidden in a sea of normal items, I have yet to see a SINGLE normal item from that zone.

[Thor]

Unfortunately, I'm not good at coming up with exact numbers, but there are a few things that I think you should take into consideration.

Capping max stats doesn't really help if you have one single item that has 20 different effects. For example, capping stats at 3 wouldn't mean much if you had a str 3 dex 3 dmg 3 da 3 hr 3 int 3 wis 3 item. I think you get the point.

Secondly, and this one is more subjective, the items could be adjusted based on mob size. If there is a mob that's so big and hard it takes the entire realm to bring it down then the reward should be better than a mob from the newbie zone. And if it's really good Mish should never ever sell it. (I'm not trying to hijack the thread for Mish topics, please no one deviate to this topic.) I'm just trying to make a point that the size of the mob doesn't matter if Mish will eventually get it and sell it.

My two cents.

Thor

[Kurix]

He did address that earlier saying that multiple affects would reduce the cap by a factor of 2 (or possibly 3).

The Mish thing is a valid point but you're right that delving any further than pointing out that right now she trivializes the danger in aquiring the item after the first time would be a pointless derail. However just taken at face value for how things currently stand its another important reason for why Limiteds need their power to be restricted to reflect that ease of aquisition.

[Thor]

He did address that earlier saying that multiple affects would reduce the cap by a factor of 2 (or possibly 3).

Oops, sorry. I haven't had a chance to read it closely yet. I didn't see that part. Thanks for point it out.

Thor

[Mas]

Below are my votes on item MAXs, though I don't think limiting the MAX stats on limited items is the right way to go given the extremely large supply of extrodinary random items. Combo 5 items random pop rather frequently, with even straight 5 and 6s possible. You can get these items off of ANY mob (level 1, level 10, whatever). In addition, people are able to easily store and transfer these items and build incredible sets. With limited items, if they are designed to be powerful it should equate to the difficulty to recover the item. These items balance the fact that people can just sit there and kill level 1 mobs all day to farm for powerful randoms. In addition, if you have a powerful limited item, you need to play in order to keep it. If you don't play, it gets recycled back into the population and someone that does play has the potential to get it. Therefore I don't think powerful limited items are that big of a deal. If anything, they provide incentive for people to log in frequently and check zones, increasing and enhancing gameplay.

I don't think the issue here is the amount of good limiteds or the MAX stats on limiteds, I think the problem is hoarding. When I made the zones, I never intended them to be farmed by KoTE, repeatedly taking a huge group through the area to obtain all of the limited item pops. I never invisioned players wearing multiple limited items from the High Tower. I thought the items would be much harder to get, allowing them to be split up and distributed more throughout the player base. Maybe I should have made the NPCs bigger, or increased the risk by including etching mobs. Or maybe the entire player base is now mostly KoTE, and if so then the items are spread out among the players, so what does it really matter? Who knows. But hoarding and balance of items is an issue that the MUD has always struggled with (the creation of Mish, purging limiteds, restriction on PK ranges from 20+ to what they are now, fined items, etc). Perhaps the implementation of an additional item flag, something like a zone flag, that limits characters from holding more than one limited from a certain zone would be more appropriate.

9 Strength

9 Dexterity

9 Intelligence

9 Wisdom

9 Constitution

50 Mana

50 Hit Points

50 Move

25 Armor Rating (for metal) non-metal cannot be greater than 9. (ac is worthless unless you're exping)

-12 Armor Class (ac is worthless unless you're exping)

7 Hitroll

7 Damroll

-11 Save vs spell (changes to int/wis have made this completely useless unless worn in bulk, unlike how it was years ago where it was impossible to succeed with dispel magic)

9 Charisma

9 Luck

9 Damage Absorbtion

-9 Magical Resistance

10-15 One Handed Weapon Sharp (max high end of the weapon damage range)

15-20 One Handed Weapon Blunt (max high end of the weapon damage range)

15-25 Two Handed Weapon Sharp (max high end of the weapon damage range)

15-30 Two Handed Weapon Blunt (max high end of the weapon damage range)

75 Container Carry Capacity

30 Twist Rings (Max charges and spell level)

30 Scrolls (Max spell level)

5 / 30 Fetish (Max charges and spell level)

5 / 30 Relic (Max charges and spell level)

5 / 30 Ring (Max charges and spell level)

5 / 30 Staff (Max charges and spell level)

5 / 30 Wand (Max charges and spell level)

[Thor]

Perhaps the implementation of an additional item flag, something like a zone flag, that limits characters from holding more than one limited from a certain zone would be more appropriate.

That's an interesting idea and doesn't seem to me like it would be that hard to implement given the way vnums work.

Thor

[Kurix]

The major problem is that the items you included, whether they are all gathered on one person or not, are NOT balanced when compared to the other limiteds in the game.

Not to mention the concentration of so many high powered items in the same zone is absolute insanity. You may not have envisioned all of them going to the same following but you had to know it would take a group to clear that place out and that the group that did would walk away with bags full of gear better than anything else in the game.

Yes you can find randoms on any level 1 or level 10 mob, but how many 10 stat randoms have you found in the last 6 months?

And how many did you have in your zone alone?

[Azeworai]

cry cry cry whine whine whine everyone dies sometime........ so the good items get recycled out... or just make them all iflagged so the people have to keep repoping them when they die!!

[Mas]

[

The major problem is that the items you included, whether they are all gathered on one person or not, are NOT balanced when compared to the other limiteds in the game.

Eh... but this isn't really a valid point. All of the zones weren't made at the same time. Most weren't even made in the last few years. Look at the zone list. There have been huge changes in the game dynamics (how damage is dealt, the stats on limited pops, changes to the way stats work, changes to the way magic damage is dealt, class and class combination changes, the list goes on) since most zones have been implemented. I don't think anything is out of line given the current environment.

Not to mention the concentration of so many high powered items in the same zone is absolute insanity.

You realize I wrote 3 separate zones, right? There are around 260 rooms, though I guess it is a crime that they are related story wise and around the same location. Maybe we should edit the items in the Dream Realm, Master's Tower, and Candlespyre too because they are too close.

Yes you can find randoms on any level 1 or level 10 mob, but how many 10 stat randoms have you found in the last 6 months? ?

I've found 2 combo 6s, but no 10 stat items. But I don't random.. and most of the time I don't even farm limiteds - I just kill people.

And how many did you have in your zone alone?

Again, zoneSSSSSSSSSSS. Or ZoneZ, whatever you prefer. If I remember correctly though, there is only 1 10 stat item, and I didn't even think it was that serious given the stat effects. It isn't anything that, if acquired, would make you invulnerable or tip the scales wildly in the player's favor.

But how can you bring the hate when you haven't even been through any of the zones? I could see if you had been to them and found them incredibly easy to get or there was some other problem, but the only complaints I ever hear are from people that don't have any of the items (though in your case you never went to the zones to try to get them, so I'm not really sure if you expected Mish to personally deliver them to you or what). Limited items should be related to the risk involved in getting them. If you haven't taken the risk to obtain them, you shouldn't be able to have them, and you shouldn't whine or complain about the people who spent 17+ hours working to get them when you weren't willing to spend 1.

[Mas]

That's an interesting idea and doesn't seem to me like it would be that hard to implement given the way vnums work.

Thor

This is good to hear, especially since it probably doesn't need to apply to every zone - just zones like the High Tower or other HARD! ones that have decent limited gear to prevent hoarding.

[Tokugawa]

There is a nohoard flag which does not allow you to have more than one of that item. I don't think this really addresses the issue with hoarding though, at least in regards to limited worn items. This is more for consumable items I think.

Any of the really nice limiteds might be limit 1 anyway, in which case the point is moot on it being hoarded.

[Azeworai]

i think that new zones are up to times and they should stay the same, because bigger stronger people look for those items and while the limiteds in other zones do suck, they will be more likely to be looked over and a guy who lost all his eq can easly get back to full in no time, hell some of the most basic limiteds let me have a disem swing....

[Thor]

With Mas's idea, if 1 zone had a 50 dmg amulet and a 50 dmg hat, you could set it up so that 1 character couldn't wear (or even pick up?) both of them at the same time. I could go for that.

[Tokugawa]

With Mas's idea, if 1 zone had a 50 dmg amulet and a 50 dmg hat, you could set it up so that 1 character couldn't wear (or even pick up?) both of them at the same time. I could go for that.

That sounds pretty complicated. Someone would have to decide what the max is that you could have. If you think the current discussion is hard to quantify, think how hard it might be to quantify this for a character as a whole.

But we are getting off topic. Hopefully more people can give their thoughts on the max stats that we should allow.

Also, I have some more research to do which may help with determining what the guidelines should be.

[Kurix]

[


Eh... but this isn't really a valid point. All of the zones weren't made at the same time. Most weren't even made in the last few years. Look at the zone list. There have been huge changes in the game dynamics (how damage is dealt, the stats on limited pops, changes to the way stats work, changes to the way magic damage is dealt, class and class combination changes, the list goes on) since most zones have been implemented. I don't think anything is out of line given the current environment.

In the current enviroment 4 stats are apparently common enough that with less than stellar stats they are pit'd, 5 stats seem less common, but still common enough that most people have a few. 6 stats are once again less common than 5 though people do have them as well. 7,8,9 don't seem to happen much at all, and I don't think I've seen a 10 stat random at all.

So if by "Totally okay given the enviroment" you mean "an order of magnitude better than the randoms currently found in the enviroment" then you are right and what we have here is a difference in oppinion on how randoms should be balanced vs limiteds.

[
You realize I wrote 3 separate zones, right? There are around 260 rooms, though I guess it is a crime that they are related story wise and around the same location. Maybe we should edit the items in the Dream Realm, Master's Tower, and Candlespyre too because they are too close.

Right but the items i've so far talked about I was informed were all from the Mage Tower. If my information is wrong I appologize but whether its 10 items in 1 zone, or 1 item in each of 10 zones it doesn't change that these items are out of line for limiteds.

[


I've found 2 combo 6s, but no 10 stat items. But I don't random.. and most of the time I don't even farm limiteds - I just kill people.

Pretty much what I said above. And killing people is randoming, without the work, since you get all your randoms with all the junk sorted out. If you haven't found alot of 10 stats while killing people, odds are they aren't out there.

[

Again, zoneSSSSSSSSSSS. Or ZoneZ, whatever you prefer. If I remember correctly though, there is only 1 10 stat item, and I didn't even think it was that serious given the stat effects. It isn't anything that, if acquired, would make you invulnerable or tip the scales wildly in the player's favor.

Yeah I get it. Zones. Like I said I was informed the items i've so far mentioned are from a single zone, but in reality it makes no difference. Just from what I've listed out theres a 5 svs/5da chest and a 5wis/5int light. There may be others but right there thats two not one, and one of those (the light) is absolutely obscene.

If you don't think getting a 5int/5wis in a slot that (at best) could have had 5dmg in it before, possibly freeing up 2 slots in your inventory for you to slide in dmg combos then you probably should take a little more time to consider what effects your items have beyond the slot they occupy.

[
But how can you bring the hate when you haven't even been through any of the zones? I could see if you had been to them and found them incredibly easy to get or there was some other problem, but the only complaints I ever hear are from people that don't have any of the items (though in your case you never went to the zones to try to get them, so I'm not really sure if you expected Mish to personally deliver them to you or what). Limited items should be related to the risk involved in getting them. If you haven't taken the risk to obtain them, you shouldn't be able to have them, and you shouldn't whine or complain about the people who spent 17+ hours working to get them when you weren't willing to spend 1.

1. I don't have to clear the zones to be able to spot broken items.

2. This whole thing of "you're just whining because you don't have it" is BS. Maybe you play this game only to win and would take any advantage given to you whether its fair or not but I don't. I value balance and competition and these items are damaging to both.

3. Again I don't have to go to the zones to tell you when the items are broken.

4. Lets just go ahead and take your figure of 17 hours. It took 17 hours for a group of players to get a whole treasure trove full of ridiculous items. If those same players spent 17 hours furiously randoming do you think they would have had the same luck? And you of all people, Mr. Pker, should realize that randoming has its own dangers. (FYI, I highly doubt even if the entire player base randomed for a solid 17 hours we would come up with anything approaching what came out of your Zones, I know for a fact we wouldn't find no crazy 10 stat light.)

5. On "risk" specifically, how much risk was actually involved when your zones were cleared by a giant group of allied party members? I don't care how tough your mobs were there are plenty of zones in game right now that have near your risk and nowhere near your reward.

6. No, people shouldn't be able to have the items without taking the "risk" but in the case of your items the "risk" was relatively minimal, the time spent also very small, and the reward greater than can be gotten anywhere else short of Simple Rings.

[Thor]

For the sake of voting, I like Anandunaiss's numbers.