Feedback for MAX stats on objects

[Natilena]

I vote for the p-file wipe.

[Tynian]

I vote for the p-file wipe.

I second the motion!

[Hiro]

I don't think the issue here is the amount of good limiteds or the MAX stats on limiteds, I think the problem is hoarding.

(snipped)

Perhaps the implementation of an additional item flag, something like a zone flag, that limits characters from holding more than one limited from a certain zone would be more appropriate.

Not sure this is necessary. I am of the opinion that hoarding tends to be a temporary thing - as people fall down go dead the equipment recirculates, and is good for my business. It is the way of TFC.

Hiro

[Hiro]

On Gear that Already Exists:
It should stay. People have worked hard and given up equipment for these new gems. But it shouldn’t be available again. If it purges – let it die not go to mish. If it pops, have it pop at its ‘new’ adjusted stats.

-Corri

Im with Corri on this one.

[Hiro]

I am of the opinion that the equipment should remain as it is. It it really good stuff? Yes. Do I have any of it? No. I havent been to the Shadow Grove since about 2005 or so and as of this morning I still am unable to find the damn thing, but thats neither here or there.

So what if someone beat me to it? Eventually people will die and the equipment will be spread around. We all die, eventually. Is TFC unbalanced because of the equipment? Are people dying in droves to the people who have allegedly hoarded all of the goodies? Based on the news page I would tend to say no.

I know Toku started this thread to get hard limits on eq stats, but I think that items need to be taken into context and on a case by case basis. Having been an Area Imm in a past life a long time ago, and faced with a situation similar to this one (any one out there remember Dead God's Tower? No? Damn Im old) we tried to impose hard limits and change existing stats and it was a complete disaster. Players who had the changed items felt cheated, and players who didnt have the items had no incentive to go get the new ones because the stats had been hashed.

Back to my point (and I do have one here somewhere) - lots of new limited eq out there with great stats. So what?

Hiro

[Tynian]

It's probably also time to set the limit counts so that items are more limited by default.

Less players + more goodies = lots of "stuff" out there.

[Tokugawa]

Kurix and Corri nailed this point: it's best done on a case-by-case basis. To not do it case-by-case is to become severely tone-deaf to the needs of the game.

However, I wanted something simple authors and I can refer to when looking at item creation. And I did do this on a case by case basis. After all the outcry on the items ensued I wanted to get a guide together so we have an idea of what to shoot for in item creation. It will not be a hard and fast guide, there will be room for exceptions. But for the most part you would not want to deviate from the maximums.

If we must have guidelines (I don't think they should be rules), Corri's stated a good general one: determine maximums for each slot in conjunction with, or at least prior to, quantity/quality of affects. However, this still leads to a blunt approach not appropriate for evaluating new zone equipment.

Of the suggestions I have seen, this might be workable. But then you state this is not appropriate for evaluating new zone equipment. But this is *just what* I am looking for. So your statement does not really make sense.

If that is too complicated, then I advocate our current approach: install, adjust later.

This is not workable. I don't have the time to spend to look at a zone several times and then adjust it yet again when it goes live. The hope is that with a guide, multiple revisions of a zone will not be neccesary. And the author and myself will know what the maximums can be up front. I think this would help avoid confusion and chances of feeling slighted when the zone is installed and all the items are adjusted willy nilly after the fact.

[lins]

In the current enviroment 4 stats are apparently common enough that with less than stellar stats they are pit'd, 5 stats seem less common, but still common enough that most people have a few. 6 stats are once again less common than 5 though people do have them as well. 7,8,9 don't seem to happen much at all, and I don't think I've seen a 10 stat random at all.

So if by "Totally okay given the enviroment" you mean "an order of magnitude better than the randoms currently found in the enviroment" then you are right and what we have here is a difference in oppinion on how randoms should be balanced vs limiteds.




Right but the items i've so far talked about I was informed were all from the Mage Tower. If my information is wrong I appologize but whether its 10 items in 1 zone, or 1 item in each of 10 zones it doesn't change that these items are out of line for limiteds.



Pretty much what I said above. And killing people is randoming, without the work, since you get all your randoms with all the junk sorted out. If you haven't found alot of 10 stats while killing people, odds are they aren't out there.



Yeah I get it. Zones. Like I said I was informed the items i've so far mentioned are from a single zone, but in reality it makes no difference. Just from what I've listed out theres a 5 svs/5da chest and a 5wis/5int light. There may be others but right there thats two not one, and one of those (the light) is absolutely obscene.

If you don't think getting a 5int/5wis in a slot that (at best) could have had 5dmg in it before, possibly freeing up 2 slots in your inventory for you to slide in dmg combos then you probably should take a little more time to consider what effects your items have beyond the slot they occupy.



1. I don't have to clear the zones to be able to spot broken items.

2. This whole thing of "you're just whining because you don't have it" is BS. Maybe you play this game only to win and would take any advantage given to you whether its fair or not but I don't. I value balance and competition and these items are damaging to both.

3. Again I don't have to go to the zones to tell you when the items are broken.

4. Lets just go ahead and take your figure of 17 hours. It took 17 hours for a group of players to get a whole treasure trove full of ridiculous items. If those same players spent 17 hours furiously randoming do you think they would have had the same luck? And you of all people, Mr. Pker, should realize that randoming has its own dangers. (FYI, I highly doubt even if the entire player base randomed for a solid 17 hours we would come up with anything approaching what came out of your Zones, I know for a fact we wouldn't find no crazy 10 stat light.)

5. On "risk" specifically, how much risk was actually involved when your zones were cleared by a giant group of allied party members? I don't care how tough your mobs were there are plenty of zones in game right now that have near your risk and nowhere near your reward.

6. No, people shouldn't be able to have the items without taking the "risk" but in the case of your items the "risk" was relatively minimal, the time spent also very small, and the reward greater than can be gotten anywhere else short of Simple Rings.

Seriously, this is uncalled for.
Mas spent hundreds of hours writing this zone and he created 260 rooms with probably more than 400 mobs. He created the zone, he put time and effort in it for you, me and all the other players on TFC. We should appreciate that and not burn his areas to the ground.

If the items that were in his zone are too insane, then this is maybe overlooked by the area coordinators and you can't blame Mas for this. Sure, I think a 5int 5wis light is a bit over the curve, but that's probably the only item that is REALLY over the curve. I also think that there are too many treasures in it, it could have done with half of it. But again, that's not something we can blame Mas for. He just made a cool zone (it has really nice rooms and tweaks) and he made it with an idea in mind. Let's thank him for that please.

My two cents,
-Lins

EDIT: on topic for the question of Toku: I agree with Corri's suggestion. Make a list of items and name the maximum number of points you can add. However these should be the plus points. What I mean: you can have a -5dmg -6svs +6da as this equals out to be 7... People shouldn't be restricted to numbers. If they have a cool idea, let them go for it and let the area coordinators decide whether it can be implemented or not. The more rules we have, the less freedom area writers have, which is, in my humble opinion, not a good thing.

I stand by what I've said above and I really think that we should give Mas more credit for his zone and that most of this gear really isn't outraged. I think that the number of items popping is just a bit over the top. And Tynian nails it right: there are less players, so on average more "goodies".

Back to writing MY area :P

[Thor]

I vote for the p-file wipe.

I still don't see a point in a p-file wipe. People would just create the same characters with the same names and those that know how to get limiteds and the best eq will still be the ones that get the limiteds and best eq. In maybe a week, (month, max) we'd be back exactly where we are now. We might even lose people as a result. If it needs to be done for new code or something that's one thing. But, who wants to take time to build a character knowing that it could get wiped out if it gets too good?

Thor

[Kurix]

I vote for Pfile wipe + reverting the random code back to 3x + rebalancing all limiteds (old and new) to reflect their place in the random vs limited structure + permanent guidelines set up on all limiteds created from the pwipe/restructure forward.

[Tokugawa]

I vote for Pfile wipe + reverting the random code back to 3x + rebalancing all limiteds (old and new) to reflect their place in the random vs limited structure + permanent guidelines set up on all limiteds created from the pwipe/restructure forward.

Like I said earlier, constructive posts please.

[Tynian]

I vote for Pfile wipe + reverting the random code back to 3x + rebalancing all limiteds (old and new) to reflect their place in the random vs limited structure + permanent guidelines set up on all limiteds created from the pwipe/restructure forward.

In fact, in some ways it would be nice to wipe the slate clean and re-balance, especially given the benefit of experience.

Unfortunately, even if the operation was a success, it would almost certainly kill the patient.

[orpik]

I think every hard zone should have at least one uber item. By that I mean something that is unique to the zone and very desirable...better than most limiteds etc...

For example nydia has the amulet of nydia, the stronghold the amulet of hate, dream realm the sand bag, etc....

So lets not just cap all items. Instead maybe we should look at it as a HARD zone can only have say 2 uber items

An easy zone can only have one nice item etc...

And yes we need to limit the number of each item more as it gets better.

With respect to level equipment, I'm in favor of it being more abundant since small chars need it to get going. Although, it needs to be somewhere they can get to it. So I suggest not capping things like int and wis as harshly as dmg, hr, da.

Also re hps or mana eq, I'd say the cap should be very high. No one wears these bc they simply arent as powerful as other things. I would say at least 50 each (since such items already exist).

Amulets, you can have higher than other slots bc you are competing with blocking, health, ts, AT etc, so its a tougher choice.

Also rings since people have simples so as long as they are weaker than simples, they aren't inflating the game that much.


Also I think non-metal and metal ac's should not necessarily be capped in limiteds. For example, if you make a very hard zone, why not let someone make 1 item that is ac 20 non metal with no effects rather than 5dmg?

Afterall how much does it hurt the game if someone has big ac that has no affects? it helps him exp but doesn't really impact the pk game that much.

Now if it is 5dmg, ok fine cap it at ac6....

I suggest a commitee of active players review stats of proposed items (w/o the names of them, before it goes in.

The comittee should include at least one pker, one more peaceful player, and some diff classes.

It is ok to allow in some different and better items in a zone. It is just an issue of how many and how much better.

[Ylang]

I agree that the items I've heard about are much too powerful. Every area should have at least one or two cool items in them, sure, but it shouldn't be a candy store for high-level characters.

This is a multifaceted representation of the wrong approach. Sorry Ylang to be picking on you, cause I agree with most everything else of what you have said here.

Fair enough. I'll gladly concede that I don't know the area or items well enough to offer an authoritative judgment on these particular items. So I'll remove that line, but let the rest stand, with the proviso stated in the original that it is a guideline, not a rule. Exceptions should be permitted when justifiable from a narrative or hardness perspective, though obviously it defeats the point to make such exceptions common.

I agree with Orpik on the number of exceptional items: each hard zone should have a couple. Each general zone should have maybe one.

(Mas) just made a cool zone (it has really nice rooms and tweaks) and he made it with an idea in mind. Let's thank him for that please.

Seconded. I really like what I've seen of those zones. They must have taken a ton of work. Kudos, Mas. You've made a great reason for us to keep playing our antiquated little obsession. In a way, that they're causing controversy is its very own compliment.

[kaern]

I agree with Orpik on the number of exceptional items: each hard zone should have a couple. Each general zone should have maybe one.

I totally disagree with you and Orpik. There's no basis for some sort of average nice-item distribution across all zones. Nice items should be authored based on context, difficulty, and narrative rather than statistics. The caveat of course is that balance is paramount.

It would be stupid for Master's Tower to have "a couple nice items". Same goes for the Mage Tower based on its layout. Mystic Wood has many individual puzzles that lead to treasure. Hypothetically, if I write a new puzzle with a new treasure at the end of it, I should be able to do this without worrying that I've reached some sort of metaphysical "zone limit" that doesn't make any RP sense. I shouldn't have to make a whole new zone just because I wanted to include another puzzle/reward. The only overarching limit is gameplay balance.

The flip side is also true. Most zones probably won't have nice items, and indeed have no need for them. They are connecting zones, xp zones, hometowns, etc. The realm is far more interesting with a high degree of variability in nice-item distribution.

[boromir]

Hi,

the zoneS by Mas: (note the plurality)
Leave the eq the way it is .. just increase the difficulty of the zone enough where you will need at least 3 eff 50's to get to the uber-eq. No acid blasting mobs tho, then it will be shamans-only probably

As for the other zones and their uber-eq? Not a problem.. just make sure the uber eq fits the zone and the effort to get the eq. A level 35 max zone should have uber eq that would be better than a level 30 max zone and be only average when compared to a level 45 or 50 zone.

Set the limtis for a level 50 zone and all the other uder eq limits fall into place.

Sometimes, people assume that all uber eq should be found by everyone.
Umm
No.

Uber eq eff 50 level should take an eff 50 to get it and probably a good idea to for two of them to go.
Why?
Its Uber-eq ... not your run of the mill reg tough zone eq .. but Uber .. so it will require an Uber effort by the Uber leveled players (eff 50). (note again, the plurailty).

If needed, adjust the Uber Eq so that if the player is too low a level, it deos NOT work at all. i.e. doesnt fit, falls off etc . That low level player has a choice .. either grow in to the Uber-Eq .. or sell it.

Add in the inventory flag and limited count etc all of which would help to keep the BIG stuff in circulation.

Your considered opinions!

[Ylang]

Kaern makes a good point, which is why there must be subjective judgment by area writers and coordinators.

As for the Lord of the Nexus, his point would also be excellent, but the notion that it takes (or should take) big characters to get uber-eq is a bit broken by Mish auctions. As soon as such an item purges, it takes merely a rich character. Mud knowledge and effective levels are superfluous when you're bidding on an auction.

[boromir]

Hi,

As Ylang correctly noted, Mish does auction all types of eq from the very mundane (ac1 leather no effects) to the GOOD stuff (ac7 +2 dam +2 hr +2 luck) and everything in between.

An addendum to my previous post, the Uber eq would not be auctioned by Mish for the very reasons stated in my previous post.

Your considered opinions!

[Gertrude]

I believe the items are fine there is allready 10 svs so how bad is an 11. the other items are very hard to get requiring a decent group of people. it will be alot harder once the zone is no longer new.
I think its less fair when there are only a few uber items and they are all in the hands of a few players. a level 40 or 50 should be able to build a very nice set in a bit of time it shouldnt take years or waiting for great items to purge.
Max stats should be up to the Gods when they add areas maybe there is a gimme in there so what. the people that are crying are the horders

[Corri]

Regardless of how hard an item is to get - people will get it. And over time, it will end up in the hands of the few - who by skill, time availability, knowledge, disposition, and desire - earn it.

Thus difficulty of obtaining an item, while an important piece of gameplay, is IRRELEVANT to game balance.

Increasing the overall powerfulness of limited available gear means that the "few" simply get further out of balance from everyone else.

For comparison:
The average powerlevel of a GREAT set right now is 7
(Orpik's posted set: 7.22 average.)

The average powerlevel of a NORMAL set right now is 4-4.5
(Correct me if you think I'm wrong)

At, call it 18 slots - thats (7*18) - (4.5*18) = a difference of 45 'points' of gear.

Lets say we chose to increase the maximum powerlevel of items out there by one point. Now the great sets clock in at a difference of 63 'points' of gear. Thats half again as powerful. (Yes, there is inherent power in the characters ungeared so this math isn't the full story but consider).

Half again as powerful. From an increase of ONE point of gear creep overall.
It throws off the balance. It is deadly to TFC.

Why am I harping on this? Because before the area coordinator team can put guidelines together to look at what gear strength ought to be - they need to define their philosophy about how strong it Should be. I believe this is integral to TFC remaining a challenging game which is fun for wolves and sheep alike.

Wolves need fat sheep to hunt for it to be fun.
Sheep need to feel that they can survive for it to be fun.
Balance, everyone wins.

Thus, by my philosophy:
The difference between the Average available gear (4) and the high power gear (7) should not be more than 3.
Individual slots, as Orpik noted, such as neck and finger, can be higher.
Other slots balance this with traditionally lower numbers. wwp and light.