Nerf Charm or Charmed Mobs

[Totec]

I retract part of this idea on the basis of findings from the cmdlog. Sam was able to successfully spam close the doors faster than I could open them and flee. So with this finding in mind, I am retracting the request to make modifications to the success rate of flee.

I do, however, continue to recommend reviewing the ability of a mage to command 6 dragon worshipers simultaneously. There is no equipment set or attainable level that can fight back against that many high level mobs.

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Original post follows:

Totec is a level 50. He was wearing 30da, and of course had max dex, etc etc.

Totec was pk'd by Sam, who at the time was un-equipped. Sam had several charmed dragon worshipers attack Totec. With 30da and level 50 evasion, it took several rounds for the dragon worshipers to kill Totec. The fundamental issue was that the ONLY actions Totec took were opening doors and fleeing and was unable to successfully flee from all the charmed worshipers.

I've captured a cmdlog for review of the fight to illustrate the number of flee attempts, and the number of charmed worshipers captured by Sam. I am recommending one of the following two adjustments:

1) Nerf the charm person spell such that fewer mobs of such high level can actually be charmed and successfully commanded by the mage.

2) Reduce the requirements for a successful flee against charmed mobs.

It is my opinion that Totec should at least have been able to successfully flee from the several worshipers to give Sam more of a challenge than simply "order all kill Totec", wait several rounds, "get corpse".

[Sam]

Hey Totec,
The door has to be open for you to flee unless you have pass door up. Notice in the log where I kept closing it. You had so many rounds to flee, or sanc, or jump, or do something.... I was really surprised you died. But thanks for all your stuff!

Sam

[Totec]

I doubt you missed my retraction where I note the near impossibility of opening a door and fleeing faster than your ability to keep the door closed. It's a 2 action to 1 action ratio in favor of the mage.

In a typical fight, actions made by each character are balanced by a corresponding lag time. In this model, the mage has no lag time to close the door because the mage doesn't even need to engage in combat related actions because the charmed mobs are sufficiently high enough level that the other character will die easily without immortal intervention.

Even in a scenario in which the fight is taking place outside of rooms with doors, the mage can follow the other character and simply spam 'order all k <opponent>'. This is problematic also due to the lack of lag penalty associated with this instruction. In a fight without charmed mobs, the aggressor is given a lag penalty for the 'k <target>' or 'c spell <target>' action, which balances it with the target's ability to flee.

The pre-nerf captain's log was more fair with its lag time than the use of extremely high leveled charmed mobs en masse. As a general rule of thumb, I would assume that most pvp interactions are timed such that the playing field remains level betwen the person with the super-advanced alias and trigger set in a mud client vs the telnet purist.

Furthermore, Totec's set gave him about 30da and 630 hit points, plus the level 50 evasion, giving him perhaps the longest possible escape time. The unbalance of the described scenario becomes increasingly exacerbated when you consider the lower bound of a 30 mage's range and typical equipment sets.

[zephiel]

I doubt you missed my retraction where I note the near impossibility of opening a door and fleeing faster than your ability to keep the door closed. It's a 2 action to 1 action ratio in favor of the mage.

Actually there is lag on closing doors, it's very possible to open/flee between close spam. unlock/lock is where you run into trouble.
I'm actually surprised anyone flees when they're in a closed or locked room because chugging recalls is so much more efficient and less risky.

[Gertrude]

its not about opening or closeing doors the charm spell is way out of balance. there should be a level cap on it
you can charm 1 level 50 or 5 level 10 for example
this is a huge issue as i see it and it being abused in many ways

[Whistler]

I agree with you gertrude, but the cap shouldn't be based on the characters level, it should be based on their CHR. personally, i find the idea that any (Non diety) could charm even one lvl 30 mob ridiculous.

AND i also think we should go back to the Kill Self order ending the charm and initiating combat, and perhaps even having the charm wearing off initiating combat unless the character is in a safe room.

[Gertrude]

the cap was the level of the character it was the level of the target and i didnt say what that level should be but that it should be limited to a total level of X . 50 was the example I used

[Kylor]

I have a long list of reason why not to change the spell. Totec died because Totec screwed up so everyone can just face it. Close door lags you the same as blynd, he didn't sanc, he didn't heal, he didn't recall, he screwed up. Sam charmed those mobs with no eq on and it's not as easy as it sounds. He also managed to time the fight very well since charm doesn't really last long. All I see here is a skilled player using his tools as a mage and killing another player who panicked. Know what prevents this...? NOT CODING. nope, it's way easier. get your own charmie or zombie with a fetish or a sphere or a scroll, this crap is laying around the game everywhere. get that charmy or zombie to guard you. it will guard against all of the mobs, then once you see sam has 5 mobs, go sit in safe a few ticks, charm doesn't last very long people, it's hard to time. Zombies last way way way way longer. Or here guys how about this. drop a dark scroll sphere spell fetish cause guess what, charmies can't follow through that. or try hiding... cause guess what, mages can't cast detect hidden on their charmies. No matter what you decide to do to prevent dying this way, please stop whining that it be removed for no good reason. I don't have sanc or cloak or hps and I use charmed mobs to do hard zones.

[Totec]

No one is asking that it be removed, Kylor. I'm just advocating that it is better balanced.

[menelaos]

Maybe a year or two ago when I was effective 30 I attempted to slay the eff 50 OM totec with a few charmed hunters from wintermeet. Since I was so small (and clearly unskilled) I was rifted to death before the mobs could finish him off.

Totec didn't complain about charm then. (Nor did he treat me with the same respect of slain magi by returning/selling back any of the gear). There are risks to every PK situation, and only one character will win. I think he is just complaining because he fought a naked character and died, like lots of UBER geared people do ... for reasons that we will never understand. As Kylor and many other characters have repeatedly stated, there are tons of ways to get around dieing to charmed mobs and it is not incredibly easy to charm 6 lvl 40+mobs to use in a trap PK situation. It takes time to charm the mobs, bring them into the zone, and stalk the character. If we are charming mobs in the zone the target character is currently in then he should see the attempt coming. The target character has to walk into the situation well aware of what he is getting himself into. Now it seems like the mage is being blamed for the shamans lack of judgement.


-Menelaos

[ink]

Mages can charm mobs of insanely large levels. They then use these to kill other mobs, kill other people, or kill themselves (which means they can loot mobs they may not otherwise be able to kill). Seeing as how things seemed more balanced before this became an issue, this must be an oversight because I can't imagine this was intentionally implemented.

[Whistler]

I believe unfetter may be the solution. time will tell.

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[Avarice]

Unfetter has completely removed charm as a tactic vs shamans anyways. And unfetter is completely unbalanced - it should be a combat spell and not castable in safe....