Personal vs Perceived Alignment

[Oliver]

I'd like to see alignments that change depending on what you do. If you attack a good character, you start to drift towards evil. If you attack a lawful character, you start to drift towards chaos.

Maybe larger increments of change when you attack a player than if you attack an aligned mob.
I'd also like to see a bribery/donation system that allows you to change your alignment slightly. Either place the shopkeeper or whatever they'd be called in the Trading Post or in hard-to-find areas.

When a player's personal alignment drifts too far from that of their Following, have penalties. Cleric spells won't be as effective or last as long, spells the Immortal cast on their followers won't be as effective if the difference between their alignment and their Followers' is too much.

If anyone has an idea on this, post it here. I'd like to see this change implemented.

[Whistler]

this sounds a lot like my 'true to your colors' idea:

http://forums.tfcmud.com/showthread....ight=#post8714

based on the posts there, i don't see them implementing anything like this in the near future.
but i do agree with you O, this would be a positive change for the game.

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[Oliver]

The differences I'm seeing is you won't know how your alignment is changing until it is too late, independents will not be deciding another player's alignment, and you don't have to go through and flag every mob with a good/neutral/evil flag.
The reason I'm pointing out not flagging every mob with an alignment is that most people's actions don't do much one way or another. The gripping hand is that most people/mobs will be indifferent and not affect your alignment.
I'm thinking that the changes won't be very large or immediate, with the change from good to evil and back again being a slow process. I like the idea that Half-Ogres and Giant-kin start with a different ranking than others, I hadn't really thought of that.
I'm also thinking that good/evil spells won't change your alignment much, if at all, since they are symptoms, not causes, of your alignment.
The main idea behind this is that people will start working harder to be their alignment and gain the benefits of it.

[Whistler]

Forgive me, but I really need to rant about this, and this is related Oliver, so please bear with me.

I've been playing RPG's since their first inception in the mid 70s. Since then, I have played essentially every single tabletop RPG, and far more of the electronic versions than most people. Virtually all of those games that use alignment systems have used a variant of the original Tactical Studies Rules written by
Gary Gygax.

The alignment system is designed to help define the character in terms of belief systems.

Alignment:
Nobody thinks of themselves as the bad guy, so Gygax came up with idea of good vs. evil as a function of whom the character is out to benefit. Those who were out for the general good of all (i.e. the masses) fit into the idea of "Good," and those who were selfish and out for themselves alone were "Evil." Between these two extremes lie those of neutral alignment. A neutral aligned character sometimes looks to their own benefit and sometimes looks to the benefit of others. A neutral aligned character looks to their Ethos for their motivation.

Ethos
The idea of Ethos works similarly. A Lawful person always follows the rules of engagement, and believes that the rules are there to be followed. A chaotic person is the ultimate rebel-- they believe the rules are there to be broken. a person of neutral ethos sometimes follows the rules and sometimes doesn't. Those of neutral Ethos look to their alignment for their moral compass.

The combination of the two, Alignment and Ethos, results in 9 distinct ethical alignments, each characterized by distinguishing features:

LG-believes that an ordered society benefits the general good, so they always play by the rules.

NG-may or may not follow the rules, what's important is that the people benefit.

CG-believes the rules are not good for the people, and breaks them to benefit others. (think Robin Hood)

LE-Believes in using the rules to their own benefit-(think politicians and big business, rules lawyers and demons)

NE-chooses for themselves which rules to follow, all that matters is that the self ends up ahead. (think mafia)

CE-fights against the rules (or breaks them) to benefit self exclusively. (think cult leader)

CN-Believes that rules are bad. It does not matter who benefits, as long as the rules are broken.

LN-Believes that order is all important, far more important than personal freedom or justice.

NN-true balance: a little bit of everything. This is the most difficult of any alignment to play.

Good characters don't Kill anybody if they can avoid it.
Evil Characters look for people to kill-they look to their ethos to justify it.
Chaotic characters always break a deal.
Lawful characters always play by the rules.


So you may be wondering what sparks this rant.
Well, yesterday I was attacked not once, but 3 times by someone who said he was just following his alignment--Chaotic good. He claimed that everyone in his following had been instructed to kill anyone that isn't chaotic. This is NOT appropriate to the CG ethical alignment. Robin Hood only killed in self defense-he didn't kill the rich, he robbed from them.

It's gotten me to thinking that not just his following, but many of the followings don't conform to these well established standards of ethical alignment. Largely, the ethical alignment of followings seem to have devolved to the point of being no more than gang colors. But then again, perhaps TFC uses a different system than every other game that uses ethical alignment-but if this is the case, don't call it that.

I would challenge each of the FLI's to strongly consider their followings, and either insist that their followers start conforming to the established standards for their supposed alignment, or change the followings alignment.



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[Deidre]

Nice explanation Whistler. I myself didn't know of the origin of the D&D alignments, but it all makes perfectly sense (even though I didn't have a reference I figured most of it out on my own sense of logic). FLI's in TFC can (at least when I was one) set their own alignment. They have never been administered (not as far as I know) by the staff to actually play their alignment. It's called self perceived alignment in TFC btw, so it is correct in that way. However self perceived should be the alignment, the ethos is just a given (if you want to make it useful for people). Do they follow rules (and which are those on TFC?) or don't they.

Anyway, the point I was trying to get across, I think some people are either misguided and don't see their actions as unlawful or lawful when they actually are, and to be able to keep close to the actual definitions (if someone decides that should be the case) you need the staff to police it (this happened before I believe).

[Oliver]

Whistler, after reading your post, and the one on hero/gallant/vigilante, and Isolas' spiel, something should be done. I think that if some sort of system that showed your "true colours" came about, people would actually start acting like the perceived alignment of their Following. If only to keep the benefits of that alignment.

As a Chaotic Neutral character, I don't *always* break the rules, but I do question them, test them to see what I can get away with, and bend them to my benefit, as any teacher/professor I've ever had could tell you (and the chem lab that 'mysteriously' burst into flames two days before I moved will show). I do agree that a chaotic individual should, if they are playing out their role, lose interest and move on to something else rather than attack you multiple times in one day.

[Tynian]

I'd like to see alignments that change depending on what you do. If you attack a good character, you start to drift towards evil. If you attack a lawful character, you start to drift towards chaos.

I'm not really too keen on personal alignment and the adjustments you outline... not because our current system is necessarily brilliant, but because personal alignment changes doesn't really do anything to keep people from gaming the system. In fact, it makes it worse in some ways.

One of the first MUDs I played had a floating alignment system. The equipment and abilities were better for good-aligned characters, but the xp was a bit better for killing good mobs. So, what to do...? Kill the good mobs until alignment started drifting a little too low, then kill enough evil mobs to get alignment back up to kill good mobs again.

I don't really see that as an improvement.

I have considered keeping track of who kills what (and whom) to make it easy to spot those that aren't playing alignment, but it only really helps identify good-aligned players that aren't acting so good. It's more difficult to quantify whether an evil character is acting evil.

As for alignment and the god/follower system, the FLI is responsible for making sure their followers are acting alignment-appropriate. But even then, alignment is subject to interpretation.

[Tynian]

It's gotten me to thinking that not just his following, but many of the followings don't conform to these well established standards of ethical alignment. Largely, the ethical alignment of followings seem to have devolved to the point of being no more than gang colors. But then again, perhaps TFC uses a different system than every other game that uses ethical alignment-but if this is the case, don't call it that.

You recently started an alignment-related thread that I responded to, and some of those points are applicable to this thread, as well.

I am impressed by your vast gaming experience, that you're able to identify TFC as having a different system "than every other game that uses ethical alignment." Every other game? Wow. Does that include every MUD that uses alignment? Just curious.

You may find this thread of interest. It talks about followings, and discusses alignment and enforcement. It points out that current alignment is "self-perceived." It is unusual (but not unheard of) for God+ to get involved with followings' alignment management.

For your reference, we have also discussed less wishy-washy alternatives to self-perceived alignment.

I'll consider practical suggestions that improve game play enough to justify the time spent on the proposed changes. I'm not at all convinced the strict application of D&D-style alignment interpretation and enforcement is practical, nor necessarily desirable.

[Tynian]

Well, yesterday I was attacked not once, but 3 times by someone who said he was just following his alignment--Chaotic good. He claimed that everyone in his following had been instructed to kill anyone that isn't chaotic.

I agree that this does not sound appropriate.

Did you post a note to the FLI about the someone who attacked you? It's possible that the attacker has misapplied or is totally ignoring the instructions that were given to him by his Immortal. It's been known to happen.

[Oliver]

I've always hated games that give a bonus for killing mobs that are the opposite alignment.

[Whistler]

tynian, i stand corrected, let me edit that to "Every other game i have played that uses alignment."

As for muds, i've only played a couple dozen, and those back in the early 90's. This is the one that i liked the best of them all, which is one reason i here.


ok, now i've read the links you recomended Tynian, but i really don't see where you're going with those references. What stands out from the first link is that the FLI's don't have enough to do, and the second link seems to agree that something needs to be done about alignment, without coming to any resolution. Are you Agreeing with my "Colors" plan?

[Totec]

I agree that this does not sound appropriate.

Did you post a note to the FLI about the someone who attacked you? It's possible that the attacker has misapplied or is totally ignoring the instructions that were given to him by his Immortal. It's been known to happen.

Actually, Tynian, Totec a good worshipper of Boromir was attacked and slain by Sam, the good ordained of Cytoxan. Cytoxan's finfo is as follows:


Cytoxan, leader of The Harbingers of Chaos, Intermediate Power.
Following's self-perceived alignment: Chaotic Good.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The followings of Boromir, Thor, Molo, Isolas are considered enemies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brief following description:
The Harbingers of Chaos are a militaristic free company of mercenaries that promote
Chaos and the destruction of evil in all its forms. Chaos dictates the Harbingers efforts.
Omens, signs and portents drive the company's will on the battlefield. From those that
read the Oracles down to the lowliest swamp witch reading entrails, the Harbingers react
to the messages that are fortold. Soothsayers, clairfvoyants, prophets, seers, witches,
and fortune tellers are reveared and respected. Chaos Rules and the Winds of Change
blow across the realm as the signs dictate.



If Cytoxan's "good" followers shouldn't be attacking other good followings simply because they are lawful, there has been no actions by the God+ staff that I am aware of to enforce adherence to proclaimed alignment or ethos.

[Tynian]

I think I need to disengage from the forum discussions, at least for a time.

It wasn't all that long ago that I enjoyed participating. I appreciated the thoughts and ideas. I tried to respond in some positive manner to most threads, tried to keep an open mind, and work towards goals to improve the game.

I've been trying to promote the forums of late, but at the same time, they are just driving me up the wall.

Now I just feel angry. I want to lash out. Sarcasm wants to explode out of me. I'm having trouble staying positive, and taking things in a constructive manner. I'm tired of defense. I want to take the offensive -- put everyone in their place. I feel like if you aren't with me, you're against me. Not a good sign. I don't know what the deal is.

You wouldn't post if you didn't care. Right?

Already tonight, I've had to stop myself from posting a few replies that just would not have been nice, nor fair.

When it feels like everyone has an ax to grind, the problem probably isn't everyone; it's probably me.

Sorry.

[Whistler]

it's nice to know there's a grownup behind all us bickering little kids.

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[Anduin]

this just sounds like a lot of coding for something very minuscule

[Belsambar]

I've been thinking about this a bit. Yes I can see where the table top definitions come into play....that's how I classify Bel in his Role-play as a chaotic neutral. He usually just does whatever comes to mind. Sometimes it's evil, it just happens to be generally friendly. I'm a generally friendly guy.

To address the Harbs and Sam, and the perceived alignment concept along with it.... Alignment is self perceived. So the characters and immortals determine how perception is ruled. However, as in the "real-world"...what is the definition of insanity? Unable to discern right from wrong? Or perhaps it's more that their 'right and wrong' is just different from the world around them, since right and wrong are subjective?

(As a Harb OM) We're a group or mercs. We're oracles, psychics, and prophets. Some of us are well. Insane. Myself included. Hence why I signed up, I like being crazy, and I'm surrounded by crazy people who don't think anything strange of me for the wierd stuff I say or do. Anyone who remembers me on Mirth ftell can attest what I'm like when I'm really out there :P Anyway, as mercs, our charter is now to spread chaos and good throughout the realm as we see fit throughout the rotes of battle. Personally, I'm sorry for anyone that is in the way of a crazy person with a really big sword regardless of their alignment, since I've slaughtered cute little fuzzy bunnies for no other reason than some disembodied voice telling me it was the right thing to do...

...and then other days, it seems like it may be a bit more evil than I thought it was...

....but they make such nice tender steaks...yum...as do small children, I would like to point out.


In the end, here's what I propose. A sanity flag. Or a (loose cannon) flag. Or whatever whoever does it wants to call it...that can be set by God+. If you see someone that is acting outside of what the mud 'society' rules as right/wrong for their alignment, they can get flagged. Then everyone is aware that this person might be off their rocker, and might try to kill you because you looked at him wrong, and at the same time, the 3rd rose in the flowerbed suggested it was because you were plotting against him and his kind...

It's simple, it's easy, it's role-playable, heck, some might even request that a god+ set them to it just because they might really be crazy. Or playing at it.

My 2 cents. Or maybe it's 4 cents. 5.3? Sorry, I lost count...

[Corri]

Bels - are you suggesting that you believe the stand of the Harbingers as being enemies of Boromir and Thor is reasonaobly justified as chaotic good? You state "our charter is now to spread chaos and good throughout the realm as we see fit throughout the rotes of battle. " .. does unjustified attacks on pacifist followers (I think I have my facts right on that part, someone correct me if I’m wrong) of a good aligned following fit the good part of this?

I have heard a lot of people philosophically say that alignment is perception - but not one who has said they actually agree that by their perception Harbingers ARE being good. Unless I read Bels’s post as saying “We are insane/mislead by portents, but we THINK we are being good?” And I dearly hope our good vs evil hasn’t come to that.

We don't need additional flags for good and evil. We don't need heroes and bullies and wild cannon flags. What we need is agreement, generally, as a community on what we want the basic good/evil system to mean - and then we need to, generally, play the same rules.

The actions of Cytoxans followers, to me, are way beyond appropriate for the intent of good vs evil interactions. I have not gotten a chance to chat with Cyto to understand the reasons for his decisions - this could be a story arc of good falling from grace that eventually will end with him evil. As group named harbinger - I think that would be kindof cool.

I have also heard rumor that it might be a response to not being -allowed- to change alignments. I am mixed on that one - I do believe a deity should have full right to change their alignment. But with Lycron having just been immorted, in his shoes I would be very frustrated to have a built a following concept around a gap in the current needs - only to have that need filled just as I tried to start up my following.

If it was a in fact a frustrated reaction to not being allowed to change alignments - I would be disappointed in Cyto for his response. Frustrating to not be allowed, yes - but I think good followings performing evil actions without further story arc is harmful to the game... and shouldn't be allowed to stand.

With any luck, the next chapter in this fascinating turn for the Harbingers is already being written. By preference, by Cytoxan – to help all of us players make sense of the current turn in the context of our world. If not by Cyto via context … then from necessity by Tynian/Toku.

[Whistler]

As i have previously stated, what i think we need is schism rules- this would allow us to deal with a diety that wants to change alignment--and followers who don't. i'm gonna start a blog on this if i can ever get caught up with everything else i'm supposed to be writing....

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[Anduin]

I think that it's stupid threads like this which frustrate Tynian from wanting to code new things. Not only are they unimportant in the grand scheme of a MUD where people pretty much know who stands where, but for reasons beyond my comprehension continue to go on with "what we need..." when he has already said IN THIS THREAD (and I'm paraphrasing) "shut up people". If you wanna talk about it still go ahead, but stop doing it in The Next Great Idea section.

[Belsambar]

I did think about sliding from what the char is aligned and what the immortal is aligned. Removing alignment bonuses might cause problems, but what about just setting it so that a character loses like, the stat bonuses...if your actions are deemed too far from what you're telling people you are, then it could be capped at a lower level setting, such as now you have a 22 stat cap across the board rather than a 25. If you push it farther, it goes back to original 3.x rules, you're stuck with 20's. Force it both ways. Evil is only powerful really if it's truly evil. Otherwise it's a carebear with a spiked collar. Good is only truly powerful if they're being righteous and helpful and promoting the growth of good values.


Personally, I'm just trying to give whatever story I can see plainly written...I'm not trying to justify or explain anything, but either alignment is self decided, or it's societally decided.

All I really want is to hit 29 OM and make my own story for a little bit. I said I like being chaotic, I am. I'm blue, I do what I do.

...and I can really only speak for myself because I cannot see whatever portents and auguries the rest of these ilk do, I only see my own.