Happy Sam

[Sam]

Not sure what happened to my other post (forum upgrade issues?) so I am reposting the below:

So I'm happily wandering around waiting for the Tynian imposed 5 minute restrictions to fade when I stumble upon Alexis. As she's KOTE and well within my range, I follow her to Thalos and promptly kill her. Upon her death, Titan "gets" *or maybe "takes"?) her corpse. I type steal corpse Titan and of course get the message that I must be justified in order to attack someone out of my range, and Titan recalls with the corpse. No big deal. That's when Tynian steps in and transfers me to the Cooler with the following explanation:

You tell Tynian (in common), 'why was I transferred to the Cooler?'.

Tynian tells you, 'Attempting to steal from a low level.'

You tell Tynian (in common), 'I'm seriously confused by your statement. I know you understand the game mechanics, so you know that I cannot steal from someone outside my range. So..'.

You tell Tynian (in common), 'If this is just an attack on me personally, you should just come out and say it rather than making up some reason to put me in the Cooler'.

Tynian tells you, 'I had to step away a second. Back now. I think the cooler is a good place for you.'.

You tell Tynian (in common), 'How so?'.
*** minutes pass ***

You tell Tynian (in common), 'Well I was curious for a response, but I suppose you can't think of a good one so the absence of one makes sense.'.
Tynian tells you, 'I don't owe you one.'.
Tynian tells you, 'Other than what I've said.'.

No Tynian, you don't owe me a response because we already know: you're really Hitler and you do what you want. Now I wait in my concentration camp cell for the gas... which will probably come from your butt.

[Corri]

I don't know what other background may have gone into this situation. But from what I have read here...

Sam, you are owed an apology.

Tyn doesn't owe any of us a response ... but basic respect commands he give you one (privately) anyhow. If you being moved to the cooler is a response to the harbinger good vs evil discussion - that should be clear. If it is a response to not appreciating the style in which you play, then as guests in his 'home', he should be straight both tell you so and, if it remains persistant, ask you to leave. If it is a response to frustration at how the code is executed, it should be rewritten.

We all have bad days, some worse than others. I hope you receive a respectful response from him to your frustration, regardless of what it contains.

[Tynian]

We all have bad days, some worse than others.

I have had a great day, actually. It's Darkmoon's birthday, so I took the day off of work and she and I had a nice lunch together.

[Whistler]

It sounds to me like tynian IS acting appropriately, perhaps with greater restraint than many would use, myself included. But, then again, I have a problem with Sam's playstyle. (he did manage to P*ss me off and that is VERY hard to do.)

let me cut out the gristle from sams post: he pked someone before he could get their corpse. this is not a coding problem. all of us who are higher than 10th level have figured out that there are some things you can't do when you first log on. he further admits that he tried to steal (read attack) a newbie when he KNEW he wasn't supposed to. I'm sorry sam, but being sent to the corner won't get you any sympathy from me, i just don't see you as the 'victim' here.

If it is a response to not appreciating the style in which you play, then as guests in his 'home', he should be straight both tell you so and, if it remains persistant, ask you to leave.

I think that this is something that many of us, myself included tend to forget. This IS Tynians home. It's his baby; he was one of the founders and cocreators. if you don't want to play the game by his rules, go get your own ball and start your own game. But don't come down on the host because they aren't giving you special consideration. That's not just rude, it's stupid.

[Anduin]

he further admits that he tried to steal (read attack) a newbie when he KNEW he wasn't supposed to. I'm sorry sam, but being sent to the corner won't get you any sympathy from me, i just don't see you as the 'victim' here.

I think you're mis-understanding (or maybe I am).. but my guess is it's not that Sam knew he shouldn't, he knew he COULDN'T. My guess was he just wrote it as a joke or because he wishes he could. I know what it's like to have "newbies" grab a corpse, it's annoying as hell and to me shouldn't be allowed unless they too can thus become targets.

I'm not really getting into the rest though, don't know enough on either side to really get down to it.

[Deidre]

Regardless of who is right or wrong and I am amazed I actually agree with some of Anduin's post, we shouldn't interfere, but... calling Tynian Hitler and refering to gas camps in my opinion is totally uncalled for. Frustration surely gets to people's head, but in my humble opinion doesn't excuse you to take that frustration somewhere else then a public forum.

Also I don't think Tynian deserves that, but now I am getting my own opinion in, so let's keep it at that.

[Corri]

Deidre, you are entirely correct.

[Anduin]

Deidre's right, but much worse is said on GOSSIP on TFC. Neither are excusable but you shouldn't pick and choose who to punish and who not to, it should be universal.

Also, Sam's IP ban seems pretty harsh and I'm really hoping it's just a temporary slap on the wrist. Regardless of people liking how he plays the game or not, the fact is he DOES play and has put considerable time into the game. It's Tynian's game, but that shouldn't mean the time we put into playing it should count for nothing.

[Snape]

Yeah, it wasn't the most tactful way to complain, but from the information we're given, it seems as if Sam's punishment for using a range-specific command that worked as it should have is a bit harsh. To clarify, if he had been successful stealing from the newbie character, and somehow abused the code, that would justify punishment. It's Tynian's game, and Sam comparing him to Hitler is never a good idea, but I tend to agree (from what I know) that he was wronged.

[Grindel]

He has been bending and breaking the rules for as long as any of us can remember. I consider this more of a life-time achievement than anything.

[Corri]

Exactly so.

Tynian has the right to request certain behaviors from his players.
And he has the responsibility to invite people to leave, if they do not meet those behaviors.

[Anduin]

Exactly so.

Tynian has the right to request certain behaviors from his players.
And he has the responsibility to invite people to leave, if they do not meet those behaviors.

Exactly so to what?

[Totec]

Sam's rhetoric in this thread is unacceptable. It's nice to see his forum account consequently banned.

On a side note, I suddenly feel inspired to take a day off to enjoy a birthday lunch with my wife soon. What a great idea

[Anduin]

not his forum account Totec.. he can't log on TFC

[Totec]

The forum reports him as banned on the forum, and that specifically was what I was commenting on. I hadn't presumed his TFC account banned when I posted earlier.

[Kylor]

TFC.

That says more then it reads. I have always thought that god+ punishments often overlooked the very reason that regulations are put in place but I have never felt that they were "technically" wrong. The fact is, Sam didn't break any rules. I can run around guild spamming k newbie all day and since it's coded that I can't do it, then it never becomes an action. It was simply a moot command. Now as far as "technically" goes, there is "technicially" no rule against entering pointless commands. That being said I think Sam's being coolered wasn't justified, but hey, it is Tynian's game and he doesn't need to be "technical" or apologize, we are all guests here free of charge. Now Sam's reaction was stupid and deserves punishment. In this case his punishment was a bit severe but let's face it, he's a repeat offender. I have seen a few muds very similar to TFC that never lasted because their staff was very abusive to players or constantly cheating for their own mortal characters and I'm proud to say that I only play TFC because I believe at the very least every player has the equal opurtunity to enjoy the game and that's because of how tynian runs the place. So if he wants to take a bigger step then normal on this one then it's really none of our damn business.

P.S. Don't get rid of charm person.

[Treehugger]

I have to say, I'm with the school of thought that Sam probably shouldn't have been coolered. It's entirely possible that Tynian's privy to some information which we aren't, but Sam would have known that he couldn't have stolen from Titan, or it could have just been a knee-jerk reaction to seeing someone pick up a corpse of someone he's killed. Either way, I don't think this single act deserves a punishment - Titan probably wasn't even aware that Sam had tried to steal from him.

As far as the "lifetime achievement", you may be right that he *deserves* it, but I don't think it's fair to retroactively punish. If he's done things for which he should have been punished in the past, then he should have been punished then rather than letting it all build up into one big punishment.

Just my opinion.

[Corri]

A few further thoughts, before I move on.

I don't think Tynian should apologize for cooler-ing Sam. My call for apology was for the way it was done.

What I also failed to say, due to a rather apalling desensitization to flames of that sort, is that Sam too owes an apology, for the disrespectful way HIS frustration was communicated. I was in error to not point this hopefully obvious truth out.

We are each are owed respect for our time and dedication to TFC. That said, as guests, Tynian has the responsiblity and right to respectfully tell any of us to get out of his house.

[boromir]

Greetings,

Frankly, I think sam being coolered is correct. And before all of you reduce my post to a few scorched embers, allow me to finish.

Sam has been playing on TFC for a long time. Sam (in his current and other guises) has played this game at all levels from all the alignments over a number of years. I will not say that they have all been played well but I will agree that that all have been played. (imho only)

The point is, Sam knows the rules about newbies et al very well and still tried to break those rules. Yes, the coding prevented him from doing so however the code should not have been run to in the first place. I'm sure that some of you will remember that this issue has come up before with others.

As always, I await your considered response.

[Whistler]

Let me start by saying that i agree the cooler was appropriate and that big T doesn't owe anybody an appology for what he chooses to do in his own house.

But, as a late observation, by consistently testing the limits of the rules, he WAS living up to the Chaotic requirements of his Ethos.

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