FLI triggers

[ink]

Outlaw and enforce strictly the use of triggers by FLIs. There are too many of them that go afw/afk for extended periods of time and are in no way playing the game, but leave triggers on so followers can have help when they need. If you aren't going to play, don't play. This is botting and is already against the rules, but somehow it doesnt apply to FLIs.

HELP BOT:
"This type
of playing, whether for the purpose of gaining xp, casting spells on friends,
or practicing skills, is not permitted here and unfortunate things have been
known to happen to characters that have abused this use of triggers."

[Anonymous Mammal]

Players of immortal characters have better things to do with their time than to babysit followers and wait until one of them requests a spell. "Playing the game" as an immortal has a different meaning than "Playing the game" as a mortal. Unless there is some kind of incentive for them to NOT use triggers for such simple tasks, then I don't see this idea getting much review.

[Tynian]

Being as "old school" as they come, I'm not a big fan of triggers, and I'm less of a fan of botting.

Botting is against the rules, for mortal and Immortal alike. The help you've referenced, though, is misleading. Strictly speaking, any trigger "receives input from the MUD, processes it, and then takes some action, all without the intervention of the human player" -- that's what a trigger is. The last sentence, though, says that "things have been known to happen to characters that have abused this use of triggers" (emphasis mine). The implied intent of HELP BOT is unattended play, not the use of triggers themselves.

Botting is not legal for anyone, mortal or Immortal, and if I catch either AFK for an extended period of time, I force-quit them.

I disagree with AM's contention that FLIs have better things to do than take care of followers. That is their primary job. Nonetheless, why should Immortals be singled out for using triggers? Mortals use them -- extensively. Are you proposing that we ban triggers, period?

[ink]

A ban of triggers isnt necessary and nearly impossible to enforce. The problem is with people not even being near the computer, yet using their triggers to play the game for them. The current strategy is for JoeFLI to log in, turn on triggers, and go afk. Thus leaving the mortals free access to anything they need. This puts those of us with a FLI that doesn't play when he can't be there at the keyboard at a huge disadvantage. (Not to mention that those with a botting FLI will almost never be pk'd because they can just pray for a teleport whenever they need.) Wheres the skill in that?

Anyway, my suggestion is no to remove triggers as a whole. I think having triggers in ADDITION to your at-the-keyboard playing is just fine. But, when you aren't even there to begin with theres a problem.

[Krysta]

Why not give the immortals there own spell list(spells mortals dont have) make them cost moree mana so the followers wont use them as much?

[Thor]

Anyway, my suggestion is no to remove triggers as a whole. I think having triggers in ADDITION to your at-the-keyboard playing is just fine. But, when you aren't even there to begin with theres a problem.

I agree that this is a problem. Although, I'm not sure how to fix it. I think, banning triggers at all would completely impossible. There is virtually no way to patrol triggers. If you wanted to do it just based on reaction time, that's easy, just put a random timer on the firing of the trigger. Then it would appear that it wasn't a trigger.

Both as a mortal and an immortal, I have/had an extensive trigger system. Programming is a huge passion of mine and so I love to do things like that. However, I don't use them to stay online or to let my follower escentially "play" my character while I'm away. As an immortal I mainly use triggers to assist in my typing. The ability to pray heal when a follower needs it or having to wait for me to type it after asking could mean the difference between life and death, especially if I'm doing something else like helping a different follower, helping EQ someone, etc.

As far as FLIs having better things to do than "babysit" followers...
I can't believe that was even stated. If you didn't want to "babysit" followers you shouldn't be an FLI. Helping followers should be the biggest reason to log in to TFC. If you have other stuff to do, don't log in to TFC.

Kinda rambling I know, but just my thoughts.

[orpik]

I'm for banning FLI use of pray initiated triggers. Ie fli's that sit and chat or go afk while the followers determine how to use the fli's mana. I am not saying fli's should not be permitted to use triggers or aliases. For example if an fli is watching a follower and has a trigger to resanc the follower or something, oh well. That is just a fli increasing his reaction time etc... (and there are inherent risks in doing this) but I think triggers which are set off by followers praying heal etc, can lend themselves to followers just being able to cast any spell an immortal can. This is not the point of having fli's, if they want to help a follower they should do so, but the follower should not be controlling the fli via triggers.

It is not that hard to police pray triggers as gods can just echo the prayer to confirm the trigger, or perhaps tynian is able to see the times commands are inputed which would show it was just a trigger set off by a prayer.

I think the easiest solution is simply to allow and encourage gods of higher levels to play with any prayer triggers they discover. ie if a fli had a trigger to heal a character when that character prayed heal, a god should just echo that 100 times and blow all of the fli's mana, etc...

Most triggers can be manipulated by mortals to be used against those who rely on them. Unfortunately, there is no way for a mortal to counteract a pray teleport trigger. So, perhaps the immortals could help us out with this....

[Cordir]

A few facts and opinions (aint I always full of them?) :-P

Fact: Pray trigs have been used by immortals for _at least_ ten years on TFC.

... I build mine around trigs I used of Molo’s when I was in Conclave.

Fact: TFC is a game of reaction time to situations. Not all players – mortal or FLI - type the same. Triggers help everyone respond faster.

... For me, I use trigs for RP (spell rechos, RP rechos, etc) and spells, because over the last 10 years of playing TFC, I’ve developed carpal tunnel syndrome. My typing speed has gone from the 80 word per minute range, into somewhere around the mid 40 wpm range. With errors, where I didn't have them before.

... Typing speed and accuracy can be critical in a pk situation, or a mob-vs-pc situation, or any other situation in which reaction time is vital - case in point, being how quickly you can pick up that weapon you've just had disarmed while the Mistress of Magic is pounding on your head.

Opinion: Most immortals have a very similar, if not identical, trigset. The playing field of immortal trigs is level. (If there are imms out there that don’t have any trigset, lemme know. I’ll zip up mine and send it to you. But I’m pretty darned sure they all have one.)

...I have openly shared my trig set with the majority of immortals currently playing who didn't already have some developed.

Opinion: The problem isn't trigs. The problem is imms who go afk for long periods of time and stay active for followers to use trigs, and combine that with reconnect triggers.

... Personally, I make it a practice never to be completely away from keyboard for longer than 15 minutes. If I am going to, I log off. However, I also live in a small apartment, and can generally see my screen from almost anywhere in the house. As I'm doing the dishes or vacuuming or whatever, I regularly come back to keyboard, generally every 5 minutes. I check WHO, check what my folks are up to, and then keep working on whatever I'm working on. Or I'll sit at my desk and work on some sort of artsy project. My hands aren't ON the keyboard, but I'm there, and actively aware of what's going on.

... Immortals actually do police one another to some degree already. If an Imm is afk for long periods of time, or unresponsive, a lesser or God+ will (and does) “QM” (quit) them. The only problem comes when the Imm has a reconnect trigger. I only know of a few folks that have them that are FLIs, and I think that issue will likely be addressed. In six years of imm play, I have been quit once – and was utterly horrified and embarrassed it had happened. (Ask Schwartz or Tynian. They still sometimes tease me about it.)

-Cordir

[jaeden]

And as for a mortal opinion...

I can type 120wpm. I don't generally use Alias', nor do I rely on triggers to get me out of problematic situations.

Having said that, I don't begrudge ANYONE who uses them to get the slight(yes, slight) advantage they offer. Fact is, the "Adventurers" we play out in this game would be living the "Life" of an adventurer. They would begin as a novice, and as years and years of experience flew by they would hone their skills to a fine edge.

That, in a nutshell, is what triggers offer us as players; an opportunity to increase reaction time and not have to think of every possible thing that's going on in a given situation. As we grow as players, so does our trigger list and alias list.. Our characters as they grow would undoubtedly gain in reaction time, speed, thought, etc. When did you ever know of a storybook hero who got worse in his trade as time progressed?

You're trying to hobble the Immortals, if you take away this benefit. Their purpose here is to guide and aid the mortals who've chosen to worship them.

I will however agree that imms who go AFK for super extended periods of time should maybe be autoquit after 25 minutes or so.

Those whos players go into another window to occupy themselves a little during down times should NOT however be penalized. Being an immortal is not always glitz and glamour..it can become quite ridiculously boring at times.

just my opinion. -Jae

[ink]

Why do mortals void after only a few minutes, yet an immortal should be allowed to be AFW/AFK for 25 using triggers?

[Cordir]

So far as I know, mortals and Immortals can be kept active by the same application of triggers -- and when they aren't applied, we void and lose link fast, too. I have seen far more mortals stay active using triggers than I see Immortals. *shrug* Your mileage may vary.

[Tynian]

Why do mortals void after only a few minutes, yet an immortal should be allowed to be AFW/AFK for 25 using triggers?

Well, you're right, Immortals don't void out. Idle mortals will void after several minutes of inactivity.

Then again, triggers reset one's idle timer for both mortals and Immortals. So mortals using timed triggers also don't time out.

I'm not sure what you are suggesting. Could you expand on what you're thinking?

[ink]

I think orpik is on to something with this suggestion. I'd like to see it happen.

It is not that hard to police pray triggers as gods can just echo the prayer to confirm the trigger, or perhaps tynian is able to see the times commands are inputed which would show it was just a trigger set off by a prayer.

I think the easiest solution is simply to allow and encourage gods of higher levels to play with any prayer triggers they discover. ie if a fli had a trigger to heal a character when that character prayed heal, a god should just echo that 100 times and blow all of the fli's mana, etc...

Most triggers can be manipulated by mortals to be used against those who rely on them. Unfortunately, there is no way for a mortal to counteract a pray teleport trigger. So, perhaps the immortals could help us out with this....

[boromir]

Greetings,
Perhaps I have missed the point.
I always was told that Immortals are supposed to assist their followers whenver possible. This includes spells, suggestions and from time to time, eq. In the 11 years plus I have been playing TFC, immortals and mortals alike have used triggers. Triggers that were enabled while active and inactive. I.e food and water triiggers, spell triggers etc
iIn my case, I had triggers to handle 95% of the commands needed to do Imp IDs. All I had to do was to accept the item and if the id was successful, type return the item.
If the reason for this thread is that someone escaped because an immortal you didnt see was able to cast spells on a follower. Then that immortal ignored you (as is their right) when you commented on gossip etc which caused you to think they were afk so you feel like you have been wronged well .oh well.
Spwaking for myself, I have between 10 and 20 spells I can hit a single key for when requested. Then again, 99% of the people who play know I have as good a chance of typoing as I do actually getting it correct. So having triggers saves my followers from death by mobs etc.
I know that I can create a set of triggers and alias etc that would allow me to spend maybe 90% of my time doing something else. I choe not to since I play TFC as much for the people as anything else
Some immortals case lots of spells on their followers and I have known some that you would not want to request a spell from since it would be fatal to you 99% of the time. Most immortals have a series of spells they will cast, some by prays, most my hitting a key or if they can type incredinly fast and correct, by hand.
To remove triggers from play completely would be very tough if not impossible. I.e. how do you tell if some is usinga trigger and typing a long IM message and afw .. OR someone is using a trigger and afk for a long period of time or working on a new area and AFW for a long period of time? It wouldbe interesting to try to remove triggers from people who are using them to stay logged in as mortals while afk or afk. You know, the eatting and drinking and respell triggers.
Frankly, if triggers need to be limited, limit the use by all levels and not only immortals just because someone couldnt finish a pk because of an immortal spell being cast.

[Arella]

I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with the idea of not allowing FLIs to use triggers. FLIs don't really have all that much to do than to take care of their followers and talk occasionally. Most of the active FLIs play from work or while doing something AFW and don't watch TFC as closely as most mortals do. Even if the FLI payed very close attention to TFC some have several followers on at once. They can not closely moniter all the followers and see if one has found themselves in trouble. The time that it takes for the mortal to type ftell (or pray) heal then for the FLI to read it and type c heal follower, is considerably longer than just typing pray heal and a trigger doing the rest. Some FLIs have only 'rescue triggers' with things such as sanc and heal; however, some FLIs have every single spell on a pray trigger. I think that FLIs should be limited in their use of triggers, though it is near impossible to enforce, but I do not think that they should be taken away.

Though I do wonder why immortals (especially those less than god(dess)) do not idle out. I know that if a god+ catches them afk for a long time they will quit them, but why is it not done automatically?