Wiki: Is there too much info?

[Cordir]

I have received complaints from two players that this page: http://wiki.tfcmud.com/index.php/Equipment on the Wiki provides "too much" information.

As the wiki is for specifically here for mortals to explore and learn from, I'd like some feedback.

[boromir]

Hi,

One of the main purposes of a wiki is to provide valid and correct information so with that thought in mind ...

If the info is incorrect ... Remove it.

If the info is correct ... Keep it.

If the issue is that people now know where to find limiteds and more powerful non-limited items ... then by all means .. Keep it since this helps to preclude someone hoarding all the 'desired' items....

If the issue is that someone has spent alot of time finding these items on their own and now feel that all their work is worthless ... Its not worthless - That person knows where exactly to go and probably the best and fastest route. Whether they are there to get the item or get the person who went first .. is their own decision ...

I await your considered opinions!

[Katrana]

I am of the personal opinion that it does not. I know so much that is not even in the Wiki. For example, no one has even touched spell effects or side effects. I'd be curious to see someone start tackling that. I also know I've forgotten alot of history that has happened on TFC. Things that I would have loved to reflect back on from time to time, but it was not able to be captured, or if it was, it's on a hard drive lost long ago. People can proactively record what they believe to be memorable now as well. I would be curious to know exactly what people find 'too much'? Limited location? Who has what items? etc?

[Aoide]

I can see the reasoning behind the complaint. As a relative novice as far as realm exploration, my experience is like Boromir says: I'm not likely to find a lot of it on my own easily anyway. I'm more inclined to vote no, it should not be removed, but I would not put up a fight if consensus went the other way.

[Anduin]

People should explore - there's no reason to do this if 1. they know where everything pops, 2. they know the names because they can just locate them. I vote yes (surprising).

[boromir]

Hi,

In all fairness, I do agree with Anduin that people need to explore and live dangerously at some point.

Speaking from past experence, I can remember finding a dragon at some place in the forest near where I lived ....
I did escape .. with my weapon and not much else intact (my ego was that pile ashes back at the dragon's cave)
I can also remember other times where my magely ego overloaded my weak-butt hp and mana leaving me scrambling for my corpse. Sometimes I had the item .. sometimes I didnt

I await your considereed opinions !

[Nicademus]

Honestly, I do not find the information on the wiki all that helpful or intrusive into the game. To be fair, there are many bits and pieces which can be utilized in an effective manner and can be of relative assistance. However, there are volumes not contained on the site and the reality is, people have this information and share it among friends anyway. At least by posting some of this information on the web, it evens the playing field, in that more information is available to others that do not have inside information or havent been around for 15 years.

I think the goal over the years has been to improve parity (floating damage, caps, purge code, etc). Knowledge is power if we want people to be able to compete lets share the knowledge. Do not lose sight of the fact that you still need to find these items out in the world and often risk life and limb to obtain them.

[wish]

I completely agree with Nicademus on this issue. There will always be things that players need to be kept in the dark about, for instance game mechanics. However, item values, mob levels, areas, and maps should not be one of them. This information, for the most part, is already known by many, and the fact that a repository has been created to share it seems like no big deal to me.

It's no secret the Mona Lisa is in the Louvre. Now try and go get it.

[Tynian]

The posted information is fine, so long as it is the mortals who compile and maintain it.

I agree with Nicademus' points. Sure, knowing where a given item pops is part of the puzzle. But there is a big difference between seeing which mob an item pops on, and 1) ensuring that item has popped, 2) getting to that mob and dealing with any hazards along the way, and finally 3) securing the item.

I would also argue that this information encourages exploration, by giving people an idea of where cool items pop. One may be inclined to leave safe to go find it, visiting any number of areas in the process. I know wandering around aimlessly (also exploring) has its charms, but actually going after something provides incentive.

[ink]

It's no secret the Mona Lisa is in the Louvre. Now try and go get it.

Amen.

That said, there is quite a bit that is incorrect in the page. I think if something is going to be posted to the Wiki the poster should be sure it is correct.

[Anduin]

I don't even know how many times I've wanted to go on an adventure to a zone, only to hear "why? nothing's popping, I've already tried locating so-and-so item". Not to mention that thanks to Mish, it's not like items pop very often to begin with. There's no incentive when people know there's nothing there (which is almost always). Maps also make this a lot easier.

[Tynian]

I don't even know how many times I've wanted to go on an adventure to a zone, only to hear "why? nothing's popping, I've already tried locating so-and-so item". Not to mention that thanks to Mish, it's not like items pop very often to begin with. There's no incentive when people know there's nothing there (which is almost always). Maps also make this a lot easier.

Which is not related to this thread.

[Anduin]

The first and second points most certainly are. Maps are not directly related, but as this topic is (for the most part) about what should or should not be part of the wiki, I thought I'd mention the maps as well.

[Tynian]

Connect the dots for me, Anduin. How are your first and second points related to what information is posted to the wiki? Because unless you are now arguing that the information should be included on the wiki, it weakens your case.

After all, who cares if it is on the wiki if "nothing's popping?"

[Whoz]

Like others, I think the information posted on the Wiki goes some way to closing the gap between the information "haves" and "have nots". I'd argue that knowing where limited items pop should actually encourage exploration, especially at the moment when most limited are either carried by characters or sporadically auctioned by Mish. People may be more inclined to explore zones to locate the "pop points" so that when/if items purge or re-pop after a reboot they'll be better equipped to locate them. Exploration with no specific objective (even knowledge) can feel rather fruitless...

There are plenty of precedents (eg World of Warcraft) where a massive amount of information is publicly available, but this doesn't turn all players into great players, or make all players capable of "beating the game". It does, however, incentivise people to try. In the case of TFC, it also exposes some of the depth of the game to players who may never see these items, except in kill logs on the forums or by looking at players in the Guild. Oh, and with the much advertised, perceived stat inflation on randoms many limiteds are novelty items these days anyway!

As a final point, if people who are "in the know" are seeking kudos from having the items, there's also kudos to be gained from writing about them on the Wiki

[Rhysling]

As I learned earlier today: Having a map and knowing the general area of an object or entrance to another area does not mean you can get to it. I swear, sometimes it's easier to bad recall to some areas than it is to walk.

I love the directions and potion colors pages. The item page I don't use that often. And the Mobmastery page is bookmarked on my browser so I can get to it quickly when I'm trying to get that last pesky point for a skill level.

Yeah, the item page would be easier if we could put it into columns with name and location and then organize it from there (like on the areas page).

Is there a way to limit the editing the page so that you have to fill out a short form with the information instead of just tacking on the info?

[Aster]

I have enjoyed the wiki and the info there quite a bit. I have been reading it to re-learn things that I have forgotten after so many years. I think the info on there is needed and it makes me want to explore more and compile more info for others.

[Anduin]

Connect the dots for me, Anduin. How are your first and second points related to what information is posted to the wiki? Because unless you are now arguing that the information should be included on the wiki, it weakens your case.

After all, who cares if it is on the wiki if "nothing's popping?"

People don't bother to check if anything's there, they can just see what items pop in an area and locate them. If they're not there, then why explore? This is especially true when a map of the zone is made for them - then there's really no reason to go there.

[malgrunt]

Not everyone has locate object. I used the list as intended today. I returned naked from a period of absence and popped a few items that allowed me to get some exp. It's great to have an organized reference to refresh my memory (even though there are many inaccuracies on the page).

[Teif]

As Rhysling said, there's a huge difference between having a map and being able to get to a particular room. Few of the maps even provide information about what mobs are in what room, let alone what challenges they may pose. The items are far from handed to people on a plate. And the secrets that the hardest zones hide will remain so for longer, I'm sure.