How attached are you to the god/follower system?

[Tynian]

How important is the god/follower system to you?

The current system has several things to recommend it:

• It is a defining characteristic of TFC. We've had the god/follower system from the beginning.
• It is different than what is found on most games. Guilds and clans are more common.
• Most of the kinks have been worked out.
• As a follower, you can get spells or equipment from your Immortal anytime they are available and willing.
• Having your god online and able to render aid during a PK can confound your enemies and give you the advantage.

It also has some problems:

• In years past, FLIs (Following Level Immortals, or demi & lesser gods) had a greater role in policy enforcement. These days, that's a very secondary part of their job description, leaving them with little to do if followers aren't keeping them busy with something.
• They are relegated to spell casting and managing their massive inventories.
• FLIs really don't get to "do" much. When there are no followers online, they are sitting around in their temples.
• Privy to Immortal information -- information that they can know but are not allowed to pass on to mortals. Yet, it happens and is almost impossible to stop.
• Temptation -- You can see where a potential PK victim is. Wouldn't it be nice to convey their location to one of your killers...? Likewise, you see that some non-followers are planning an ambush of your favorite follower. If only you could warn her...
• Use of Immortal information to benefit themselves.
• Something level 50s can relate to: most FLIs have nothing more to achive, especially if one is not interested in area writing or becoming a god+.
• No continuity. If the FLI retires, the following vanishes.

To their credit, we've been blessed with principled Immortals who largely do not take advantage of the rules. Regardless, conflicts of interest arise when we provide Immortal/administrative information that is only supposed to be used in limited and narrow situations, yet FLIs also have a vested interest in their following and followers.

So, back to the question: how integral is the god/follower system to you as a player? Could a guild or clan system serve the same function for you? Or would the absense of the god/follower system ruin the game for you? What are the most important aspects of being in a following?

I don't want to get into how changes would be implemented or what would happen with staff. If changes were to be made, all of that would need to be figured out, planned for, and communicated. We're definitely not to that point.

Let me know what you think.

[Solaron]

I voted for both - but I would like to clarify.

I think player-run organizations are important, skill and team building and easier to administrate. That said, Followings ARE an integral part of what TFC is. I don't think that TFC should ever be "without" a God/Follower system if it's avoidable.

I do think that changes need to be made; remove some of the temptation and give the FLIs something else to do. I had a system in mind once that I thought would work fairly well, but we won't get into specifics; what matters is that the FLIs would be kept busy, their followers would have a God, the chance for cheating/bending the rules/grey area would be greatly reduced.

THEN introduce a Guild/Clan system. With no immortal to hold gear and store items, perhaps guilds would work off more of a pride-system, able to build and increase guild halls, war with other clans, who knows. Either way, it'd provide a lot for all sides of the equation. This way, nothing would be taken away from TFC, only gained.

[Thor]

I agree with Solaron. I would like to add that having a following/FLI has always been very important to me. Things like ftell, help getting out of a sticky spot, and help with balancing eq are extremely difficult without a following/FLI. I have greatly enjoyed being in followings and I am currently greatly enjoying leading one.

[Belsambar]

I've always like having followings. But, that's not saying there shouldn't be more options....with guilds and clans, you can draw your own set of allies and enemies aside from your following, good for personal alliances with likeminded people who are technically 'enemy'. However, the combination has a lot of potential for abuse by less scrupulous individuals....but doesn't any system?

I personally don't really care, as long as we KEEP our FLI system. I'm always of the opinion that variety breeds potential.

[Tynian]

However, the combination has a lot of potential for abuse by less scrupulous individuals....but doesn't any system?

How so?

[Isolas]

Perhaps I am too glass-is-half-full, but I am very happy with the way the system is now, and how it has evolved since I began playing TFC 8 years ago. It is one of the largest points that makes me continue playing, and I cannot imagine TFC without it.

I've seen the clan system done on other muds, and have found that often times common goals unite people, only to split them later on the fine points. With the player base the way it is, a clan would need to be notoriously hard to get and require a certain amount of players previously committed I'd think. I'd imagine that otherwise, there'd be 50 clans with 1-2 members each.

I'm not afraid of change, but I may be too optimistic about the way the system sits now. I enjoy it the way it is now, and don't see much need for a bigger change.

[orpik]

I like having fli's, however, I have long thought fli's need to be given more things to do. ie I propose allowing them to do more things or fight other flis to determine "power" levels etc...

If we get rid of the eq function of flis, characters will have a very hard time making new characters and levelling up without violating character separation. It is just too hard to come up with level eq when you start without killing mobs which would give you exp and ruin your level.

Also without flis we will see a lot more Tylin type characters who just log on to sit in safe and acquire and hand out equipment. Though perhaps this is not a big concern.

If we do go to a clan system I think something must be done to preserve the status of fli's such as the lich and even though I hate to say it Cordir, who have spent so many hours on the game. I would hate to see them pushed out...

As to the temptation and risk issues, I think the easiest way to get a hold of that is to have more god+ chars who play mortals. Why? You have to be in the circle to prove it usually as it is very simple to tell someone to locate object before running for a corpse etc... Also I would advocate for much tougher screening.

[Schwartz]

If we get rid of the eq function of flis, characters will have a very hard time making new characters and levelling up without violating character separation.

Character separation is already a huge issue, this won't make it worse. I can think of far more players who shared their alts with me than didn't, while I was both mortal and FLI. In my mind, character separation is so abused it is difficult to imagine how it could possibly get worse.

Also without flis we will see a lot more Tylin type characters who just log on to sit in safe and acquire and hand out equipment. Though perhaps this is not a big concern.

This is not the place for allegations. Take those elsewhere. With regards to mortals handing out equipment, I don't see the problem...? Help me understand how a mortal with limited inventory is worse than a FLI with virtually unlimited inventory.

If we do go to a clan system I think something must be done to preserve the status of fli's such as the lich and even though I hate to say it Cordir, who have spent so many hours on the game. I would hate to see them pushed out...

Tynian said he wasn't prepared to discuss this at that level of detail yet.

Schwartz

[Solaron]

I like having fli's, however, I have long thought fli's need to be given more things to do. ie I propose allowing them to do more things or fight other flis to determine "power" levels etc...

I agree. As Tynian and Schwartz have said, we shouldn't get into specifics or details, but there are definitely things FLIs could do to keep themselves more occupied.

If we get rid of the eq function of flis, characters will have a very hard time making new characters and levelling up without violating character separation. It is just too hard to come up with level eq when you start without killing mobs which would give you exp and ruin your level.

I wouldn't even suggest removing their EQ function in full, merely limiting it a little bit. To be honest, the commands I was speaking of limiting was: at, goto, mstat. Make each one ONLY usable on a mortal who worships you or a character under level 5. This would remove the most basic temptations FLIs have to cheat or bend the rules. People who -really- want to do it will probably find a way, but I don't think we have any FLIs like that, and enough limitations and checks are in place to root them out if we end up with any.

Also without flis we will see a lot more Tylin type characters who just log on to sit in safe and acquire and hand out equipment. Though perhaps this is not a big concern.

I lol'd.

If we do go to a clan system I think something must be done to preserve the status of fli's such as the lich and even though I hate to say it Cordir, who have spent so many hours on the game. I would hate to see them pushed out...

Agreed. Regardless of how I feel about any FLI, they've worked hard to get where they are at. It's often-times a thankless job. That's why my suggestion would be to keep BOTH systems. Tynian can increase the FLI limit as player base increases, and a guild must have XX number of players to be formed, and similar to a following, if its activity level dwindles bad things happen, only faster. If you've only got 1 or 2 active members on last months roster in your guild, be prepared to kiss it byebye.

As to the temptation and risk issues, I think the easiest way to get a hold of that is to have more god+ chars who play mortals. Why? You have to be in the circle to prove it usually as it is very simple to tell someone to locate object before running for a corpse etc... Also I would advocate for much tougher screening.

God+ chars playing mortals to the level, skill and EQ-status needed to tempt FLIs into cheating for them would vastly reduce their time for administrative issues, code changes, area installs and the like. I'm really of the opinion that we have a vastly smaller 'violation' situation than you sometimes imply. Yes, things DO happen. As Tynian said, it's pretty much unavoidable. Hopefully we can make some changes to fix that!

Great discussion so far.

[wish]

I have never played another mud in any depth, so it is hard for me to say whether a clan type system would be better. I do believe, however, that a following like the Conclave could survive under that type of situation, since we already have a mortal hierarchy structure that emphasizes independence while still maintaining a core group identity.

One advantage of the current system over a clan based system is the inherent authority and immediate recognition that new followings get when they are headed by an FLI. Player led clan's would not have that, and I think it is a great disadvantage to clans that might be just starting out. Just as in real life, for a mortal to organize and grow a clan takes charisma, it takes connections, and it takes time. TFC followings, at least initially, seem to me to be much easier to start and grow.

It seems that the problems outlined currently fall into one of two categories:
1. FLI's have nothing to do.
2. FLI's have too much information about the mud, and therefore are a potential security risk (translate, cheating risk).

The thing about the first problem is that FLI's could solve this on their own, really. Creation of more internal following quests and running of following spar competitions are just two things that come to mind. It seems to me that FLI's are often bored because they are not taking the initiative to lead their followings effectively through creative means. Being an FLI entails more responsibility than just logging on and spelling up your followers for a TC fight. In my opinion, an effective FLI should act more like a traditional D&D Dungeon Master than as simply a super powered guardian and eq horde. They should be a guide to the followers in terms of behaviour, following goals, and player development. To this end, it is my opinion that more stringent rules need to be applied to followings in terms of forging and sticking to an established following identity and following alignments. The current system of pretty much allowing FLI's to define their own ideas about what is and what is not good, evil, lawful, etc., only exacerbates the problem because FLI's do not really have to adhere to any of those labels even after they have picked one.

I believe that TFC is essentially a game of conflict, and that conflict is actually reduced when you create grey areas for people to play in. When there is a clear demarcation between alignments and followings, it fosters better game play and more interesting stories because of the inherent conflict that it creates. This is a line I have argued before, and I know there are those out there that disagree with me. However, I believe that the creation of distinct groups with competing values (even artificially) is the engine that keeps this mud running. The more you water that down, the more you can expect boredom to be a big problem. There is a reason why the greatest stories have traditionally been those with clear antagonists and protagonists playing the major roles. Atriedes vs. Harkonnen, Frodo vs. Sauron, Cain vs. Abel. The list goes on and on.

As for the second problem, I do not how you can solve that problem without doing away with the current FLI system. In the current system, FLI's need to have the type of capabilities and information that they currently have to be effective. In the end, I am not so sure that there is that big of a problem with FLI's cheating. I would like to hear Solaron's ideas on this topic, since he mentioned he had some.

Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave

[Solaron]

I have never played another mud in any depth, so it is hard for me to say whether a clan type system would be better. I do believe, however, that a following like the Conclave could survive under that type of situation, since we already have a mortal hierarchy structure that emphasizes independence while still maintaining a core group identity.

One advantage of the current system over a clan based system is the inherent authority and immediate recognition that new followings get when they are headed by an FLI. Player led clan's would not have that, and I think it is a great disadvantage to clans that might be just starting out. Just as in real life, for a mortal to organize and grow a clan takes charisma, it takes connections, and it takes time. TFC followings, at least initially, seem to me to be much easier to start and grow.

In my mind, starting out weak and having to gain power based on your own skill and the skill of those you surround yourself with is appealing. I think a guild/clan system would appeal to a certain type of player, especially if we have some special Clan-only items (clan warfare, etc) where Followings would have their own benefits (spells, eq, protection, etc). It would be a disadvantage, but there's much to be said about persevering through adversity. That said, I've also played many, many games that use guild systems and 4 or 5 muds with god/follower systems. TFC has by far the most intricate God/Follower system. I believe that we can find a happy medium; we do not need to choose one or the other.

It seems that the problems outlined currently fall into one of two categories:
1. FLI's have nothing to do.
2. FLI's have too much information about the mud, and therefore are a potential security risk (translate, cheating risk).

I'll agree with that pretty much, yeah.

The thing about the first problem is that FLI's could solve this on their own, really. Creation of more internal following quests and running of following spar competitions are just two things that come to mind. It seems to me that FLI's are often bored because they are not taking the initiative to lead their followings effectively through creative means. Being an FLI entails more responsibility than just logging on and spelling up your followers for a TC fight. In my opinion, an effective FLI should act more like a traditional D&D Dungeon Master than as simply a super powered guardian and eq horde. They should be a guide to the followers in terms of behaviour, following goals, and player development. To this end, it is my opinion that more stringent rules need to be applied to followings in terms of forging and sticking to an established following identity and following alignments. The current system of pretty much allowing FLI's to define their own ideas about what is and what is not good, evil, lawful, etc., only exacerbates the problem because FLI's do not really have to adhere to any of those labels even after they have picked one.

Based off of our recent conversation, Wish, I can only assume you have the Mafia in mind when you speak of more stringent rules. As you know, I'm in agreement with you; TFC has a self-perceived alignment system currently, so I use it. I would use whatever system I'm handed. However... it should be no secret that I would've preferred the Mafia to be a mortal-led guild if that were in. Why? I have no clue. Call it an elitist mindset of wanting to be in a group/organization that excels without the use of an Immortal.

Gods SHOULD organize more quests for their followers; many don't, however. Unless we add even more red tape and even more rules to an already red-tape heavy bureaucracy, that probably won't happen. Cordir runs some quests for her followers and occasional mud-wide stuff, but there's no incentive. Players, both mortal and immortal, need incentive. Some of my ideas would require a revamp of the God/Follower system. Something that places no limitations on the FLI, only on the players.

For example, there's already code in place for the golems. Based upon the out-of-safe activity of a player, why not grant them Blessing Points (or some such). Casting a spell on a follower takes away from their BP pool - not the god's mana. FLIs will no longer be limited - it will be up to their players make sure they're healable. These BPs could be used then in many different things. Once a certain amount is reached... 500 perhaps, a player could donate them to the God, who could use them to beef up his golem. We could use the arena to fight the golems, with rewards tailored to FLIs - an extra room on their temple, more restrings, bonus BP, gear for their golem, who knows. Maybe they could buy an additional Ord spot. That could all be decided later. What matters is that then, FLIs would have something to concentrate on.

Right now, when we're bored, we're -really- bored. I'll watch other players fight, watch spars, watch newbies, watch the rare Masters group, whatever. It is fairly easy in today's society to take that one step farther and use the knowledge gained to MSN or AIM someone information with none the wiser. Does it happen? Undoubtedly. Does it need to change? Definitely. Is it a rampant problem? Naw. People see patterns where none exist usually, or refuse to believe that such-and-such could have tracked them to here or located that corpse, etc.

Either way, I believe that choices are a great thing. Adding in functionality to FLIs and creating a guild system would be killing 2 birds with.. well, 2 stones I guess. Or maybe 1 big one.

I believe that TFC is essentially a game of conflict, and that conflict is actually reduced when you create grey areas for people to play in. When there is a clear demarcation between alignments and followings, it fosters better game play and more interesting stories because of the inherent conflict that it creates. This is a line I have argued before, and I know there are those out there that disagree with me. However, I believe that the creation of distinct groups with competing values (even artificially) is the engine that keeps this mud running. The more you water that down, the more you can expect boredom to be a big problem. There is a reason why the greatest stories have traditionally been those with clear antagonists and protagonists playing the major roles. Atriedes vs. Harkonnen, Frodo vs. Sauron, Cain vs. Abel. The list goes on and on.

I agree. Neutrality is more of a hindrance than it is a help. It needs to be removed.

As for the second problem, I do not how you can solve that problem without doing away with the current FLI system. In the current system, FLI's need to have the type of capabilities and information that they currently have to be effective. In the end, I am not so sure that there is that big of a problem with FLI's cheating. I would like to hear Solaron's ideas on this topic, since he mentioned he had some.

Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave

Hope that clarified some of my opinions, Wish!

[jaerith]

I can't even pretend to be as verbose on the subject as these fine indidivuals above me. All I can really say is that TFC has always been, to me at least, about the gods and their mortals. I can't for the life of me see TFC without it, and despite the ideas I may throw up there to cause a nice debate, I believe it's what defines TFC.

And that is how I've voted. I have thoughts on neutrality, though I'll leave those for the other thread.

[Solaron]

To those of you voting the first option - what are your thoughts on allowing both Followings AND Guilds/Clans into the game?

[orpik]

I like the idea of allowing clan leaders, In my mind how this should be done is by giving Ordaineds more power (derived from the following). I think ordained power should be a lot more group based than individual. Ie and ordained in a group of his followers should make them all stronger like a bard or be lots stronger (and his power should diminish with his following)

Personally and I am very biased on this, I would like to see ordained as more of an ordainment than a class. Ie the following and or God selects their OM and it can be given to lvl 50s.

As it is, something is lost when OM's are selecting because they were lvl 40 etc, instead of their power or ability to lead etc. For example characters who play a ton like miressa or who played key functions in their followings like Hiro and Ink often help run and or set the tone for a following much more than does the OM, but cannot serve as OM because they are lvl 50 (and or were OM in the past). I guess the point is, level 40 characters rarely are key figures in followings, yet only lvl 40 characters can be ordained. (this usually leads to people creating characters to be ordained rather than ordaining characters who would best fit the position).

Again I am biased but I am oldschool when it comes to OM characters and feel that the true Conclave or Fate etc characters who have been around a long time and personify the following should be able to be OM as those characters (who usually only attain that level of experience and status while creating a lvl 50), rather than creating a new character to be OM and or having some other smaller character be the OM because the older larger characters have no room for the class.

[Solaron]

So you're suggesting clans within followings? I'm confused. I do agree that the ordained system could be a little cooler, I'm just trying to figure out how this fits in.

[boromir]

Greetings!

First things first:
I agree with Orpik on the issue of OM with a degree of difference:
The OM should be the most powerful embodiment of a following that a mortal can be including spells and attributes rather than just an ornamental or cursory title change. OM's are the FLI's pick of someone who can speak for them (the FLI) when that FLI is not present. An OM should be an experienced player .. ideally lvl 50 with lots of experience and knowledge and judement
With that in mind, (and this will require a coding change I beleive), enable the OM to be a '4th' class. Now, before all the TFC coders run around yellin and screamin, let me complete this train of thought:
In theory, 1 OM per following so the number of OM's is limited to the number of active followings or less. As such, to create a '4th class' i.e. changing the display the players see etc is not worth that effort.
However, what about adding a section of code to track the OM's xpin and level progress and save that information as a help OM <Name>. The OM can see their xp and their level as well as any other attributes that Tynian and the other fine coders feel appropriate to include. The OM level would not be reflected in the information shown as part of the who or whoi but would be avaiable as help OM levels. That help command would show all the levels achieved for all the OM's to the rest of the players on TFC.
The data would be stored in a standard player rec so as to minimize changes to the backend. A possible way to retrieve that record would be to add (for example) "OM" as a suffix to the players name as the record ID. The search criteria being modified to reflect somthing along the line of find all information for someone whose name is like boromi*. Once the player is released from being an OM, the record can be archived and then removed from the database. Thus the only change to the backend would be the addition of a wild card character to the name to faclilitate the retrieval of the record.
There would be other changes required and those are very straightforward given that alot of the code already exists in one form or another.
Clans:
I feel that Clans do have a place within the framework of TFC. And borrowing an idea from Orpik and applying it to the Clan functionality, allow the leader of the Clan to have some of the attributes of the OM with one addition. The addition being that the more clan members on, the greater the impacts of the spells cast by the Clan Leader (Jarl as a name) on player and mob alike. THere would be no other change to the basic attributes of the Jarl and would remain the same as prior to becoming a Jarl.
The spell casting improvements would driven by the number of clan members persent and active. With that in mind and to prevent people from being a member of a following and still boost the powers of a Jarl, memberships in a following and a clan would be an 'either or' condition. A player could belong to a clan or a following but NOT both.
The only real benefit from belonging to a clan would be CT (Clan Talk). Other than that, there would be no gains or enhancments to be gained from being a member of a clan. Unless of course, having no alignment to follow and NO immortal assistance is considered a benefit.

Your considered thoughts and opinions!